Episode 26 - Planning Doesn't Kill Romance, It Saves It | Interview with Dr. Robin Buckley

In this episode of Just Human, Jay Boykin sits down with Dr. Robin Buckley (author of Marriage, Inc.) to break down a powerful truth: planning doesn’t kill spontaneity — it protects it. When couples stop running on autopilot, they stop having the same fight every month and start building real connection again.

You’ll learn practical relationship tools busy couples can use immediately, including:

- The daily check-in that deepens connection in 5–10 minutes
- Why “they should just know” is a romantic myth that destroys communication
- How to use a safe word + a simple SOP to stop conflict spirals
- What amygdala hijack looks like—and how to get back to calm, logical thinking
- Why couples become “roommates” (and how to reverse it)
- The 5 types of intimacy and how to build a “menu” of connection
- How to use active listening so people feel heard (not argued with)

If you want your relationship to feel less reactive and more intentional, start with ONE thing: try the daily check-in this week and notice what shifts.

🔔 Subscribe for more conversations on leadership, personal growth, and the practical human stuff that makes life work.

CONNECT with Dr. Robin Buckley
INSTAGRAM @drrobinbuckley
LINKEDIN @dr-robin-buckley
YOUTUBE  @DrRobinBuckley  
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WEBSITE https://drrobinbuckley.com/

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Transcript

Jay Boykin (00:01.875)
We plan everything in our lives. We plan our finances, our careers. We even plan what's for dinner. But what about our relationships? You know, I am gonna talk to somebody today who I'm super excited to speak to, but we're gonna talk about the fact that spontaneity, that planning doesn't kill spontaneity, it actually helps to protect it.

Dr. Robin Buckley (00:02.091)
Mm-hmm.

Jay Boykin (00:28.135)
And so when couples stop running on autopilot, they can actually stop having the same fight every single month. So let's dive into it.

Jay Boykin (00:59.187)
Well, welcome to Just Human. And in this space, we have honest conversations about what it means to lead and to grow and to build in today's world. And I am super excited to have you here. We explore the intersection of business and leadership and personal growth. And we're talking about the practical stuff and the human stuff because life does not come with instructions.

And I am Jay Boykin. I'm your host and thank you so much for listening. I know that you've got a ton of choices on what you could be doing with your time right now. So I thank you for joining us here on Just Human. We are available any place that you can get great podcasts as well as on YouTube and on Spotify. And today I am talking to Dr. Robin Buckley who has a PhD.

in clinical psychology from Hofstra University. She is an author, a speaker, and a behavioral coach. Dr. Robin, how are you?

Dr. Robin Buckley (02:05.922)
Hi, Che, I'm so glad to be here.

Jay Boykin (02:08.103)
I am excited to have you here and I am really looking forward to this conversation. I want to start off this way. For my listeners who are not familiar with you, they don't know you yet and how fun this is going to be, tell folks a little bit about your background and how you got into the work that you're doing today.

Dr. Robin Buckley (02:30.786)
Yeah, you know, I've always loved psychology ever since I took my first intro class in college and the human behavior is something that will never stop fascinating me. And so I did the traditional route of clinical work, but one thing that never aligned with me was the idea that clinical work tends to come at an intervention stage or chaos stage. And I really believe in that proactive preventative approach. So I switched to coaching for that reason, because coaching is about

Where are we now? Where do we want to get to? But over time, as I worked with some really dynamic entrepreneurs, leaders, emerging leaders, eventually their relationships would come up. And these were people, just bad ass people that could go manage conflict and work and get goals accomplished and knew their metrics for what success looked like. And when their relationships came up, I'd say, well, wait a minute, you just managed that conflict at work. Could you use the same skills at home? And the flat out answer over and over was,

no, Robin, that's different. Love and marriage is different. And I kept hearing my brain scream. Why? Why is it different? Why not? Why do we have to reinvent the wheel when we walk through our home door? So as I walked, worked with these individuals, I started framing the idea of relationships around business principles because they could relate to that. They could grasp onto these concepts and then generalize them into their personal lives. And it has been.

So fun, it's amazing to watch people's minds initially freeze around, no, that's not how love is. And then the more we work through it, they're like, yeah, it is. It can totally be that way.

Jay Boykin (04:08.563)
Wow, that's amazing. So we're talking to Dr. Robin Buckley and the author of Marriage, Inc. So are these some of the things that, you know, over time as you've developed these frameworks and these principles and you've worked with different people, are these the type of things that you've written about in your book?

Dr. Robin Buckley (04:29.71)
Absolutely. The book really came because of my clients. They'd say, you know, Robin, you have two choices. Either you have to write a book or you have to put yourself on audio in an ear pod in my ear so I can just listen to you as I'm dealing with my significant other. And since that was not going to work, the book was a natural continuation. So encapsulating all of the ideas I have to date, and it seems like I have more now that it's published, and allowing people not just to have an understanding of the theory behind it, because theory books are great.

but I wanna know what I can actually do. And that's what I've done in the books. I've practical, very concrete strategies that couples can implement immediately into their relationships. So it becomes more of a tool rather than just a great book to read.

Jay Boykin (05:16.275)
Wow. So I can already hear some of my listeners, you know, and again, I love to plan things as a person who has a degree in accounting, background in finance, my favorite places inside of a spreadsheet. I don't do anything without planning it first. You know, I'm the type of person that will do a dry run on packing a suitcase two weeks before the trip happens.

Dr. Robin Buckley (05:44.718)
Well, we can be friends, Jay. We can do this.

Jay Boykin (05:46.676)
Yeah, yeah. But you you think about relationship planning and I can imagine that there are people out there that are eye rolling and thinking that the spontaneity goes out the window and if you're in love, then you don't have to plan. So let's talk about that. Give the listeners an idea of some of the things that you're talking about and some of the things that you've written about in your book.

Dr. Robin Buckley (06:12.738)
Yeah, I think that the initial premise to understand is that the structure and the concepts in the book create a really wonderful foundation, almost a protective enclosure for love, sexual attraction, and all the fun, emotional stuff of relationships. takes out the, or it tries to protect us in the relationship away from the things that are going to get in the way of enjoying that part of the relationship.

And so it is a way for people, know, when they say to me, Robin, that's not how a relationship is. And I'm like, you don't think that way because that's not what our society's taught us. Between Disney, Hallmark, and rom-coms, we are told that love just happens and it's fate and it's destiny and the way it goes is the way it goes. But like you said in your opener, we don't do anything in our life that we want to be successful without some type of plan.

whether it's our healthcare, whether it's our vacations, road trips, meals, and then the bigger things like retirement and finances. But our most important relationship, our committed relationship, we're just gonna go on a wing and a prayer. And I cannot fathom doing anything in life that's important to us on a wing and a prayer because we want to try and effectively manipulate the outcome. So the book really helps people.

Jay Boykin (07:35.102)
Wow.

Dr. Robin Buckley (07:38.7)
And this framework helps them restructure this idea away from the idea that having a plan for your relationship makes it cold or clinical or robotic. And it actually just creates safety for the things that we typically identify with relationships.

Jay Boykin (07:56.308)
Robin, can you be a little bit more specific there? And I'm gonna frame this this way. I know that in my household, my wife is running two businesses, I'm running mine. We are constantly busy. We've got all these different plans that we want to have around our businesses. But sometimes when we get home,

It can just be, just want to sit here for a minute and not think about anything. What are some things that, you know, busy couples, busy individuals can think about in their relationships that is around the planning with their relationship?

Dr. Robin Buckley (08:46.764)
Yeah, I'm going to start with, and we can cover all or one day, but is the idea of a check-in. And again, at work, we don't think twice about this. You know, for many organizations, they use Slack to make sure that people, especially when you're working from home, can communicate during the day, even if it's just small personal ways. And we have our weekly meetings to make sure that we are clear what the week looks like. We have our monthly meetings to do an overview and analysis of where we are with projects at work.

And then we have our quarterly retreats. And yet very few couples allow for that dedicated scheduled time in their relationships. So the first one, we think about the daily slack check-in, asking yourselves how, when during every single day, no vacations, do you genuinely check in with your partner? Not enough, hey, how was your day? Fine, how was your day? Good, that does not count, Jay.

It's actually sitting down ideally face to face, but I work with a lot of couples who travel a lot for business. So it goes face to face is best face time is next or something like that. phone call and then text. So at least once a day you check in. So let's say we go for the ideal and it's face to face. It's five to 10 minutes, Jay. And when couples say, Robin, we don't have five to 10 minutes. That's, that says a lot more about their relationship that they can't really find five minutes to be together in an authentic way.

It's no distractions, no kids, no pets, no phones, no technology at all, just the two of you. And the only requirement I suggest is each person comes in with a question that will get to something deeper than how was your day. So it could be, what was something about today's work day that made you smile? That works. What was something that challenged you today that maybe I could help you with?

My husband and I actually we do ours in the middle of the day over espresso and my question or his question to me today was if we had unlimited resources What are the two places you would want to own a home? And when I actually gave him one of my responses and I've been married to him for 14 years and known for 20 years as a friend beforehand I actually said something that he didn't know about me. That's mind-blowing to me that after all this time I could still share something that he didn't know that gave him more understanding about

Jay Boykin (11:00.33)
Wow.

Dr. Robin Buckley (11:07.692)
That's what the daily check-ins look like and that's what they can do. They enhance communication, they enhance connection, just like our daily check-ins with our colleagues.

Jay Boykin (11:07.7)
Wow.

Jay Boykin (11:16.917)
That's really good. My wife and I, I think that our best time is in the evenings when we go sit in the hot tub for 20, 30 minutes and we have some really good conversations there. Robin, you said something earlier. First of all, you're not taking away those Tom Hanks, Meg Ryan, know, sleepless in Seattle moments from me because, you know, this guy loves him a good rom-com, but in...

Dr. Robin Buckley (11:25.58)
Yes, right. Yeah.

Dr. Robin Buckley (11:37.912)
Hey.

No.

Jay Boykin (11:45.237)
In all seriousness, what is one common belief about love that sounds romantic, but can really be sabotaging things?

Dr. Robin Buckley (11:59.106)
Yeah, I, gosh, won. Okay, so one would certainly be that I hear regularly is a couple who will say to me, you know, it doesn't matter male, female, well, they should just know what I want because that would be a sign they love me. And I call BS on that so fast. I'm like, really? Your partner's a mind reader. Cool. And they're like, but no, we've been together for so long. They should know me by now. And I'm like, I hope they don't because that's when things get boring. When the couple can't

Jay Boykin (12:12.499)
Hmm.

Dr. Robin Buckley (12:27.406)
evolve because they just should stay the same. So this idea that you that knowing reading your partner's mind is an indication of the level of love is just a fallacy that we get into. And then it really creates sabotage in the relationship. Because if you don't, if you can't read my mind, if you can't predict what I want, then we're in trouble. Or and then it becomes this conflict situation. It makes me cringe when I hear that Jay, because it's so it's

it's lie and I will turn it on them all the time. I'm like, so at work, you assume that your employees or your customers or your boss can read your mind. And of course we don't do that as an effective leader and effective employee. And yet we expect it from the person that we want this long term relationship with. So that is certainly one.

Jay Boykin (13:09.673)
Right.

Jay Boykin (13:15.869)
Yeah, that's amazing because at work we're doing surveys and we're measuring customer satisfaction and all of these other things. But yet you're right. We do expect that there are times that our spouse, our significant other should just know. So that is super powerful. I love the idea of doing the...

Dr. Robin Buckley (13:22.062)
Right. Right. Right.

Jay Boykin (13:45.578)
daily check-in because it feels like, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but it's so easy to just get caught up in the busyness of our daily lives and you can end up going weeks and months and then before you know it, there's years.

Dr. Robin Buckley (13:46.861)
Hmm.

Dr. Robin Buckley (14:08.076)
Yes. Yeah.

Jay Boykin (14:12.755)
and then all of a sudden you've just got a roommate.

Dr. Robin Buckley (14:17.326)
Right. And that happens so and a lot of couples that come to work with me, that's where they're at. They're roommates. They want to be together. They don't want the relationship to end, but they're at the level of we're talking, you know, lot of couples get to the point where they're just talking logistics or kids or not anything about who they are as individuals and who they are as a couple, which we're very good at doing when we're dating. And if we don't, if we aren't diligent about continuing that, especially with the daily check-ins,

it can get lost. And then that foundation of where your relationship or your family started from is gone. Because when couples say, we prioritize the kids, I'm like, that's not good. Because the kids came after your relationship and you came before the relationship. So it's you being healthy and strong first, then you as a couple, then you as a family, and then everybody else. That's the order. people...

I have a hard time with that, especially parents, think, or caregivers, because they believe that a sign of their love or dedication is to put others before them. And I think that is one of the most dangerous things that we can do to the consistency and the sustainability of our relationship.

Jay Boykin (15:33.098)
Wow, that's really good. You mentioned earlier that you started focusing on coaching. For folks that are uninformed, like I was when you and I first spoke, help people to understand the difference between therapy and coaching.

Dr. Robin Buckley (15:59.982)
Happy to. love this talk. I love getting asked this question because I think it's really important because I meet so many couples who assume if there's problems in the relationship, they have to go to therapy and they can. I'm not begrudging therapy by any means. I think it's incredibly powerful. But for many people, they're scared of that. They think therapy is that last ditch option before divorce or they've done therapy and they know it can be very emotional, very painful. therapy

There's two areas that I look at it. First therapy is certainly when there are diagnosable issues. So something that it's a psychological diagnosis, definitely therapy. And then when there are specific situations going on in the couple. So addiction, adultery, significant loss, any kind of abuse, definitely starting with therapy. Those are clinical issues that need to be addressed before you even think about moving forward. Therapy is also going to look at a lot at the past. There's going to be a...

deep dive into the past. And a lot of couples don't need that. A lot of the couples I work with, I'd say to them, we can't change the past. So unless there is a clinical issue, there's no need to really do this pulling up of some issues that may not need to be addressed because they're done, they're over with. Coaching is going to look at the present and the future. Where are you now? What are the strengths in the relationship? What are the pain points? At least that's the way I phrase them from a business model.

And where do you want to get to? And how are we going to build a plan to get there? So it can be an intervention model if couples are really in some kind of rut, but it also can be a preventative model. We just want to make sure we keep moving in the direction we want, which is forward and together.

Jay Boykin (17:45.92)
How does a couple, you know, so I definitely encourage everyone to get a copy of Dr. Robin's book, Marriage, Inc. And so Robin, if you have a couple that feels like they might be struggling a little bit, you know, we find all of these different ways to improve the way that we eat.

Dr. Robin Buckley (17:46.318)
It is a cut.

Jay Boykin (18:15.605)
We improve our exercise regimen. We improve the way that we perform at work. But sometimes, you know, I can only imagine that thinking about, these are the things that I need to do to improve my relationship. How do you take that first step? You know, especially if maybe you've got

one person who's feeling like there's a challenge and maybe the other person is not quite in the same place.

Dr. Robin Buckley (18:51.054)
That's a good question too. I think one of the easiest ways, at least from my observation and my experience, and it sounds really simplistic, Jay, so let me hash it out first for your viewers are like, come on. So it can start as easy as assigning chores and responsibilities in the house. And the reason I like starting a lot of couples who are hesitant or one member of the couple is hesitant is because it's pretty neutral topic.

what we're going to do, and this is not a dictatorship. This is not me coming in and telling my partner, these are all the things you're going to do. And then I'm going to take all the things that I want to do. That's not how it works. It's sitting down and saying, here are the things that we need to take care of to make our household and our life function smoothly. And here are some things I'm really good at. So in my relationship, I'm very focused on nutrition and physical health and wellness from a nutrient standpoint.

My husband could care less. When we moved in together, his cabinets were Captain Crunch and Chef Boyardee, which quickly were thrown away. So I like doing that. I have a strength in that. So that is definitely my responsibility. He is awesome with numbers. He likes playing with money and doing all that stuff. He should have been a financial advisor. I can do it, but he's better at it and he enjoys it. So he is the CFO in our relationship. We actually sit down and define

Jay Boykin (20:10.239)
Okay.

Dr. Robin Buckley (20:13.496)
Who's taking care of what so that there's complete clarity. And the best part is, is it builds trust. I know what's going to be taken care of. And as long as he does it, my trust goes up and vice versa. So it enhances the relationship, not just because things are clear and we know everything's taken care of by one or both of us, but it also enables me to really have this confidence that I don't have to worry about that. I don't have to take up mental and emotional space worrying.

Is that getting done or, you know, have we covered everything? Cause we've had the conversation. So couples who are disconnected or complaining that they don't have really strong communication skills, that's a great, easy place to start knowing again, that it is about strengths, preferences, and then negotiation. So a couple that I've worked with in the past, neither one wanted to do the cat litter box. I don't blame them. That does not sound like a tour I want to do. So.

instead of arguing or both ignoring it and then hoping the other one would do it, they each took two weeks of the month. So first and second were hers, third and fourth were his, and that's just the way it was. And if it didn't get done, then there was a conversation just like you would at work, like, okay, how can I help you remember to do the thing that we agreed we were gonna split? It's not a blame, it's not a shoving it back on that person, it's just help me understand how we can participate in this more effectively. It works really well.

Jay Boykin (21:39.83)
Okay. This is really amazing stuff. And I hope that those of you listening, and again, thank you for the time that you're taking to listen to Just Human. I hope that you are really finding that this is landing well for you. Robin, I'm gonna go to a place that some couples may have challenges talking about.

Dr. Robin Buckley (22:06.574)
Okay.

Jay Boykin (22:08.253)
And that's intimacy in the relationship. So, you know, are there ways that we can put some planning and some structure around what intimacy looks like in the relationship?

Dr. Robin Buckley (22:21.454)
The first step, Jay, if I can pull you back a little bit, is understand there's five types of intimacy. When most people hear intimacy, they think physical intimacy and they think sex. And yes, that is certainly one of them. But there's five other ways that we can connect as a couple. So there's physical intimacy, spiritual intimacy, intellectual intimacy, experiential intimacy, and emotional intimacy. I always forget one. And so when we broaden our opportunity to understand how we can connect

in very genuine, very deep ways, it gives us a menu. And people do this at work all the time. They know they have a project. In this case, for a couple, would be our project is that we want more intimacy in all the areas of our life. And then they break it down. What are some options that I have to get this project done? Here are some little tasks I can do, and here are the big tasks. And then there are things that I want to schedule so I remember to do them, and I block time for it.

we can do this with intimacy. I am not saying it works for every couple to schedule sex or to schedule time for experiential intimacy, but I do know that for most people, if it's on their calendar, it's more likely to happen. so couples will again, tell me Robin, that breaks down all the spontaneity. If we schedule sex, I'm like, okay, we can keep doing it your way, which is you haven't had sex in two months, or you can try and schedule it. And then it actually happens.

or at least there's a conversation about why it's not happening that night. So much like we look at the projects at work and creating menus of, know what, on this day, I don't have a lot of energy to do some of the project. So let me take a look at some things that are fast or easy to do. So if it was experiential intimacy on my list with my husband is dancing one song in the kitchen. We don't have to go anywhere. We don't have to dress up.

It's one song that takes three minutes and yet we have that moment that creates a memory. That's experiential and intimacy. It doesn't take a lot of time, but we know if you were saying, you and your wife coming home, Jay, and we're the same way by the end of the day, we're like, we don't want to talk to anyone. We don't want to do anything, but three minutes to take a quick dance in the kitchen, we can do that on nights that the energy is lower. So having a menu of intimacy options, just like we do at work to accomplish projects.

Dr. Robin Buckley (24:45.932)
works equally well for our relationship.

Jay Boykin (24:49.779)
You know, I'll be a little vulnerable here. One of the things that, you know, was a bit of a challenge for me, I work 99 % of the time here at home and my wife is 99 % of the time out of the home. And I don't always have days where I get to talk to amazing people like you.

there might be a day where I am sitting at my desk facing a spreadsheet all day long and I'm not speaking to anyone and I would get in the habit of You know, I hear the garage door going up and I'm like our dog my dog and I are racing for the back door to get to my wife and you know start having these conversations well, she's been talking to clients all day and

Dr. Robin Buckley (25:30.304)
I was just gonna say like a puppy.

Jay Boykin (25:44.426)
you know, she needs a minute. She doesn't want to have that conversation. And I would get in my feelings so bad because, you know, why do you not want to talk to me? And it's just understanding her side of it and understanding where our loved ones are coming from. And so here's the question that I have for you. For...

You know, those of us in those meaningful relationships, do you find that we have to have that open growth mindset and realize that, hey, every once in a while, you're gonna have to compromise, you're gonna have to do some things different in order to get the best out of this relationship?

Dr. Robin Buckley (26:31.63)
Absolutely. I actually just had this debate with someone over the weekend of whether Compromise really has a place in relationships She was saying that she doesn't want to compromise and that's why she's not dating and I was very much agreeing with her That's a good place to be because really compromises about relationships just and if you don't want to the word compromise then use negotiation Which we do in business really well, we we negotiate as to what is the agreed upon?

place to start or place to meet, you know, meet in the middle because that works. It's not just my side or your side rarely in business and the same as true in relationships. I don't think it's common for couples to be in exactly the same place for most situations. You know, whether it's cause one's an introvert, one's an extrovert, one's been talking all day, the other hasn't, the one has a lot of energy and the other doesn't that day. It's negotiating what's that middle ground that works or

What can I compromise and say, yeah, let's totally do it your way. Cause I got enough in me to do it that way. And then maybe later on down the road, it's a different way. So again, it's, it's so much like business, but it's understanding that. And the other piece goes into my neuroscience background. You know, when you were using that very vulnerable example, Jay, you're all in your amygdala, that emotional, provoking survival part of our brains.

which is fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. So you, your wife comes in, she's like, mm, mm, mm, no talking. And you immediately take it personally. That's just your amygdala. Yeah, your amygdala takes, you know, tries to protect you by saying, what did I do wrong? You know, why is she being like that? Instead of allowing your prefrontal cortex, which is the logical, rational, strategic, data centered part of our brain and saying, you know what? She just had a long day.

Jay Boykin (28:05.843)
Yeah, it's me.

Dr. Robin Buckley (28:26.956)
I'm going to give her 10 minutes and then I'll check in with her and see if she's ready to engage at that point. It's that shift from the amygdala that is one of the most powerful tools in any relationship, work or home, to allow us to think about our action rather than creating a reaction.

Jay Boykin (28:50.645)
So Robin, and all of that is, I did an episode that will be dropping here soon that was talking about self-awareness. And again, thinking about how we choose to respond as opposed to how we react. And so, what are some practical ways that...

individuals when they find themselves in that place of amygdala hijack, that they can try to stop themselves and just pause for a minute and, you know, get back to that logical place.

Dr. Robin Buckley (29:33.614)
All right, so again, incorporating neuroscience and business. One of the biggest strategies I talked to couples about is developing a safe word. So a lot of us have heard about safe words from, know, in the bedroom and various movies that highlighted that. And that's important too. But a safe word is used in communication. And it comes down to a word or phrase that when one member of the couple says it, it stops all communication.

There's no, you know, one more thing or let me just say there's none of that. It ends right there. And then ideally you have an SOP, a standard operating procedure of what follows. Cause we're not trying to subvert the communication. We're not trying to put it under a rug. We're simply trying to give it a pause because the communication is starting to spiral out of control. And one or both people are realizing it and someone is brave enough to use the safe word. So when you use the safe word,

The communication stops and then you follow your SOP. Maybe it's, we're each going to take 30 minutes. We're going to go our separate ways. We're not going to be in the same room. And then after 30 minutes to the dot, we're going to meet back on the living room couch to pick up the conversation and try and move forward in a positive way. That's a very clear SOP. There's no guesswork and you don't show up late to that couch. The SOP is you show up at 30 minutes and you don't try and rush your partner. it's been 20 minutes. I'm good. No, no, no. The SOP keeps you keeps you honest.

but it's picking the safe word or the phrase that's really important, So when a couple picks what their safe word is gonna be, it's a word that is coming from a shared memory or happy memory that they've experienced together. So mine with my husband is seagull. And it brings us back to the moment he was trying to propose to me. I don't like birds, Jay.

I really don't. I don't like them close to me. It's just a thing. My grandmother made me watch Alfred Hitchcock's The Bird when I was five. So it's a little leftover from that. And we were sitting on the sand on the beach, one of my favorite spots. And just as he was, as he tells me later, was going to propose this ginormous seagull that we now refer to as George, he came waddling over and no joke, Jay, his head was at head level with us sitting on the sand. And I'm like, there's no way, there's no way I can stay here. I didn't know what was going to happen.

Dr. Robin Buckley (31:56.771)
I didn't know it was proposal time, but I was so uncomfortable. So he had to change everything, our proposal changed, we moved to another location and then he proposed. But when he or I say seagull, both of us know what it's referencing. We both have the visual of what we were doing and what seagull means. And the neuroscience of it is that instead of functioning from that high level of cortisol and adrenaline that is happening when we start to miscommunicate or get into conflict.

When we trigger a shared memory, our oxytocin spikes and our oxytocin is our connection hormone. It's the reminder to our brains in the case of using my husband and I as an example, he's my person. We get each other because we have that shared memory and just that subconscious reminder that I'm not fighting him, it's us together. So it doesn't mean that anger goes away immediately. It doesn't mean that it magically disappears.

but it does start to drop the neurotransmitters that are fostering the conflict and bring it to a level of starting to reconnect with him just from one word, which is really, really incredible to think about.

Jay Boykin (33:12.735)
We are talking with Dr. Robin Buckley and this conversation has been so powerful. I'm going off script a little bit and hopefully this doesn't derail our conversation. I don't think it will because you're so dynamic that you've probably heard this question before. These things that we're talking about, I think that most people are defaulting to romantic relationships.

Can some of these things be used in friendships and other types of relationships that we have as well?

Dr. Robin Buckley (33:50.862)
And I love that you brought it to a general generalization of the concepts. So yeah, any relationship you have can utilize the strategies that we are focusing on in really in romantic relationships. And I can give you an example. So my husband and I between our in our blended family, we have four children, the younger to our daughter are our daughters, and both of them had been out of the house for a year. And coincidentally, they both decided to move back home.

last summer. So one came in June, one came in July. And now these are young, you know, early 20 year old women, they hadn't lived with us for a year. We had a very set way of doing things by that time. And when they went before they even moved into the house, I sent them a criteria of what the expectations were. And I reminded them that yes, you're our daughters, but now you're also going to be our renters, even though we weren't even charging them rent.

Here are the expectations of what is going to happen to effectively move forward and make this work. So was simple, basic things, but maybe not to 20 year olds. Like common areas, you don't have personal items in common areas other than when you're using it. And the shared bathroom that they had had to be ready for guests if someone walked in the door, just basic things. But we were clear on our expectations. We essentially defined their job titles.

of what it was gonna look like to be a member of this organization, meaning their home, because they hadn't been. So there was not assuming they could read our minds of what our expectations were. I also didn't wanna assume what they were thinking this was gonna look like. And they admitted that one of my expectations was you will cook dinner once a week. One, because that's just a good thing to do. And two, they didn't know how to cook. And I thought that was an important life skill that they needed at that point in time.

They knew what we were expecting. I knew what they were expecting and changed a little of that because they didn't expect to cook. But it became, it actually worked out and my husband will even attest to this better than we thought it would. We thought there'd be a lot more conflict as they adjusted back to being home and living with us. We thought there'd be a lot more frustration for us. And thankfully, and we also had the expectation of when one of them who wasn't the one in college could live with us for as long as she was in school.

Dr. Robin Buckley (36:17.4)
But the other one, was, okay, you have two months and after two months, you're going to start paying a small rent. And every three months after that, it's going to go up in increments because we want you to be out and living your life. You don't want to live with us forever. I don't think that'd be healthy for any of us. So everything was clearly laid out. Just like if she was working for me, I would lay out everything that was expected of her and she'd be able to have input of things that didn't work for her so we can negotiate around those. So yeah, these strategies work in any relationship.

Jay Boykin (36:46.823)
You said something there that was so powerful and it made me think about it this way is that when we're in the workplace, if we have people who are on our team that work for us, there are clear expectations in terms of job description, know.

team norms, all of these different things that are taking place where people understand what is expected of them. And we have our weekly one-on-ones and all of these other checkpoints that you talked about. And yet many times in our relationships, it goes back to what you said at the beginning. Well, if they love me, they should just know. And that seems totally unfair.

Dr. Robin Buckley (37:38.262)
Thank

Jay Boykin (37:43.881)
that by laying out things the way that you just said, it keeps the opportunities for misunderstandings and for us to get our feelings hurt because our expectations were different than what the other person was thinking.

Dr. Robin Buckley (37:47.502)
Yeah.

Dr. Robin Buckley (37:58.649)
Yeah. And I think not only miscommunication, Jay, blind sides. know, when, when couple, we will start with couples, you know, one's cooking dinner and the other comes in and is like, there's this thing that I wanted to address with you. And that's not the time they're in the middle of something. We wouldn't walk into a colleague's office and be like, Hey, there's this really big thing we're going to talk about right now. You'd ask for a meeting. So with one of our daughters, there was a couple of things going on and I wanted to have a sit down with her. And so I sent her an agenda.

Jay Boykin (38:02.921)
Yes.

Dr. Robin Buckley (38:28.034)
which is what I suggest to couples for their monthly meetings that they create an agenda. So everybody knows what's going to be discussed. And I, when I was thinking about sitting down with her, I'm like, she gets really anxious if I just say, I want to talk to you and you know, tomorrow, then she just spins with it. So this was, Hey, I'd like to set up a time to talk with you. What time works with you? I'd like it to be tomorrow, if at all possible. And here are the five things that I want to cover that way. There's no worries or anticipation.

or again blind sides, cause she knows what's coming and couples can do the same thing again, just like we do at work. I also asked if there was anything she wanted to add to the agenda because that's fair that if I had things coming in that she might have some things that she'd like some space to address before they get bigger. So it's to me, it's a level of respect and love allowing for each person to cover the things that are important to them.

but in a way that are going to be received because you've made the time to hear it.

Jay Boykin (39:29.747)
You know, that I know that there are people that are listening who are probably thinking, you know, really, I'm going to set an agenda to talk to my loved one. But I think about it this way. You know, how many of us have received that text message or heard the words, we need to talk later.

Dr. Robin Buckley (39:38.99)
As you are.

Dr. Robin Buckley (39:53.55)
100%.

Jay Boykin (39:54.844)
And then the amygdala hijack comes in again. And I know that for me, I'm a world-class worrier. I get it from my mom. My mom was the best worrier. She's in heaven now, but she was a world-class worrier. And so I get it honest. so I think that, yes, doing an agenda seems like it

Dr. Robin Buckley (40:09.516)
Hahaha

Jay Boykin (40:23.579)
shouldn't have a place at home, but I can really see the power of that in the way that you describe that and how useful that can be.

Dr. Robin Buckley (40:33.85)
It's great in the monthly meetings. I suggest the monthly meetings are about an hour because nothing no meeting is good after an hour and Each couple knows they're going to cover the the important things that influence their relationship So finances dependence physical health sex and intimacy whatever else they they determine are important areas to make the relationship function smoothly and The agenda I typically recommend it's either a shared notes on your phone or it's a Google Doc that they both can access

And throughout the month, unless it's something that is an emergency and must be discussed immediately, and then you call for an emergency meeting, you don't fly inside your partner in the kitchen and definitely not in the bedroom, because debate should not happen in the bedroom. That should be a sacred space. But each person can see what the other is adding to the agenda, not to prepare an argument, but to know what's coming to know, okay, yeah, we're going to talk about that. Because even in a meeting, you don't want to be blindsided. So it becomes a space.

that when I have the thought, we got to talk about this, I can take a pause, say, is that really necessary to talk right now or can it wait for our monthly meeting? And then you go add it to the agenda so you don't forget about it. So you know it's not, you don't have to keep it in your head until you meet again. It's not something you have to keep reminding yourself about. It's got its place. And then you get to keep functioning with your partner in a daily way without worrying about that, because you know the discussion will happen. And you know that's a place

where you will ideally talk from your frontal lobe to be able to come up with strategies together as a team, not again placing blame or it's on one person.

Jay Boykin (42:13.903)
I'm telling you, Robin, that this, every time you open your mouth, I get another question that comes in. Are you still good on time? Excellent. So with the things that we've been discussing, this feels like a great place to talk about the power of active listening and how important that is in our, well,

Dr. Robin Buckley (42:20.174)
Yay, I questions. I am.

Dr. Robin Buckley (42:27.374)
Thanks for watching.

Jay Boykin (42:42.801)
in all conversations, I don't think that people use that tool enough. know, people will, they're listening to respond, they're listening to craft their next argument, but not truly listening to understand. So talk a little bit from your perspective about how important it is to truly listen and then maybe give a couple pointers for people on

things that they can do to become better listeners.

Dr. Robin Buckley (43:15.406)
Yeah, so what I'm hearing you say, Jay, is that from your perspective, you really see listening as an important part of building a relationship. yeah, I think a lot of you have heard the strategy that I just demonstrated, but it is it's not parroting. is trying with your own words to understand what the person just shared with you so that you're clear and they have the opportunity to say, no, that's actually not what I was going with. And that's not that they're trying to be

Jay Boykin (43:22.931)
I see what you did there.

Dr. Robin Buckley (43:44.59)
critical of you, they're trying to make sure that you clearly heard the point that they are making. So repeating back in your own words, what you believe you heard from your whoever you're having the conversation with is a really important first step. Because again, it forces you to be listening instead of preparing an answer because you're about to spit it back, you're about to say what you just heard. that right away.

gets you to stop trying to figure out what's my next statement. And it's so effective, especially if there is miscommunication or conflict, because it slows you down. I mean, if you're trying to listen to what your partner said so that you can repeat it back, you're not gonna be letting your brain and your amygdala run ahead of itself coming up with the next answer. So that is certainly one strategy I encourage. The safe word we already talked about.

Sometimes it starts with just a basic definition for yourself of what listening is versus talking. Because I hear a lot of people say, I talk to my partner all the time. I'm like, great, do you listen? And they think that's the same or they integrate that as just part of the process. But those are two different things. Talking is sharing information. It's communicating. Sometimes it is, even though two people are talking, they're still only sharing.

like disparate ideas, but listening involves no dialogue back. It is just taking an information for the sake of being in the present moment. Some of the couples that I've worked with that have had a really hard time and I don't begrudge them. We're not trained. We're not taught how to listen. I mean, we're taught how to, you know, pay attention, but listening is different than paying attention. So I actually get them to utilize a sensory exercise when they're listening.

So one couple I know, I wouldn't choose this, but they actually got buckets of ice water and they would either stick their feet in or their hand in to the ice water as they were trying to listen because it grounds them. It keeps them in the moment because it's pretty intense. Another couple, would get out their listening slippers and their listening slippers were these really bougie

Jay Boykin (45:53.823)
Wow.

Dr. Robin Buckley (46:07.426)
I don't even know what they were made of, but a super soft fuzzy slippers, because when they put them on, could like move their toes around and it would keep them grounded in the moment.

Jay Boykin (46:18.675)
That sounds way better than sticking my feet in ice water.

Dr. Robin Buckley (46:20.462)
I would never, I would never, they also were into cold plunges, Jay. So this was part of their life. But, but it's in that moment, I've had couples who have utilized spicy food or really intense chocolate because it just keeps them right there. And it's fascinating to me when we can utilize our senses as part of the listening process. Now, I don't think every couple needs to do that, but for some that have a harder time, actually one.

one couple I know, they integrated like really intense like those altoids, but something that was more intense than altoids. And when they used a safe word, they would both grab whatever this mint was that was super intense. And they would suck on that when they took that was part of their SOP. So it started to ground them in the moment rather than spinning ahead.

Jay Boykin (47:13.653)
This is really good. This is so good. So my next question is, I'm asking for a friend, but what is it, you know, when you have someone who is struggling, where there's a big disconnect between their intent and their impact, you know, what are some things that I can do, I mean, they can do to try to improve

Dr. Robin Buckley (47:13.806)
You

Jay Boykin (47:43.859)
there to, you know, in their brain, I know that they're thinking that they have the best of intentions, but their impact is not where they want it to be.

Dr. Robin Buckley (47:56.024)
Well, I was about to ask you to define those terms from what your perspective is, but I think you clearly. So the intent, and I'm not not trying to do what I did last time. I am trying to understand. So intent would be what the purpose you have in your head or that person has in their head about what is being said. But the impact is how it resonates with the listener. Okay. That's a great question. I would recommend in those situations, starting with.

Jay Boykin (48:14.748)
Exactly.

Dr. Robin Buckley (48:23.69)
asking questions to your partner. When, either in the moment when you're having a conversation and you're noticing it's starting to derail or after the fact, tell me what it was like for you when I said it. How could I have communicated that information better in a way that would have felt better or you would have heard it better so that they can give you feedback. Again, just like we do at work, tell me what's the best way for me to communicate information to you. What's the best method?

How do you like to receive information? Again, we do this at work, particularly as effective leaders, but we often don't do that with our partner. Or we just assume the way we've always communicated is the way they're always gonna want to receive information. And again, if a couple is evolving, which I hope every couple does over time, that might change. One thing my husband knows about me is I do not, I have a harder time processing auditory information.

than visual or tactile. So if he shows me how to do something, I'm really good. If he writes it down, I can remember it better. If he tells me something, it's hit or miss. Sometimes I don't process it and I need more time to reflect on it if he says it to me than if he writes it. So that influences how he shares information with me. And that's because over time I've said, please stop.

telling me something, particularly when I'm in them. He has ADHD. So good. I love that man. He can be doing something as I'm talking to him as he's petting our dog and he gets it all because that's the superpower of people with ADHD. For me, he walks into my office and he knows now if it's something that can't wait, if I'm doing something, he will sit and he will wait. sometimes it's taken me time to get comfortable with the fact that he might sit there for 10 minutes until I am done with whatever I'm doing.

Jay Boykin (50:09.205)
Yeah.

Dr. Robin Buckley (50:17.442)
but that's how, again, impact and intent are respected. So it's paying attention and knowing through questions how your partner best receives information and how they best communicate back to you, because it might not be in the moment. You might want an answer right away, but if that's not how they function because they need time to either regulate their emotional response or process and reflect.

That's an important piece of information. And I think that's how you can really manage and positively manipulate impact.

Jay Boykin (50:54.377)
So good, so good. I feel like I could talk to you for hours, but we'll just have to have you back another time and we'll talk about some other things. So we talked about Marriage, Inc. What are some other things that you've written? also have, you do some regular work in another publication, don't you?

Dr. Robin Buckley (50:58.798)
I love that.

Dr. Robin Buckley (51:06.506)
with

Dr. Robin Buckley (51:18.03)
Yeah, so I do have articles that come out actually a new a new periodical that I love is it's an online magazine called provoked and it's for women over 50 and it is so fun and it's it talks about everything including relationships. So that's a lot of fun. But I've been an entrepreneur. I've been in chief. I've done a lot of fun work. My other books are fun, but they're very much passion projects.

But the biggest turn for me in life, and I might've mentioned this to you, Jay, is this year I'm doing at least one podcast. I have three in mind and we will see how the first one goes, but the first one is going to be coming out in March and it's something I've been thinking about for years. So I'm very, very excited about it.

Jay Boykin (52:03.509)
Well, I know it's going to be fantastic. If your podcast is anything like this discussion, then it is going to be super powerful. Dr. Robin, if people want to reach out to you, if they want to connect with you, what's the best way for them to do that, either on your socials or website?

Dr. Robin Buckley (52:06.434)
Thank you.

Dr. Robin Buckley (52:13.602)
Thanks Jay.

Dr. Robin Buckley (52:23.212)
Yeah, both work equally well. So whatever is easiest for people, it's Dr. Robin Buckley, all one word, the same moniker everywhere. Any social they can mention except for X, I'm on it so they can find me. But I'm always happy to answer questions when people want clarification about something they heard. It's always fun to hear back from audience members.

Jay Boykin (52:44.073)
That is awesome. I really appreciate you having taken the time out of your busy schedule to be with us here today on Just Human. again, listeners, this was a great discussion about relationships and thinking about things from a planning perspective. And the way that I think about it is just putting the same type of intentionality

into our relationships that we do in so many other areas of our life. And if there is someone that you know that you think needs to hear this, please share it. Do me a favor and no matter where you're listening, leave me a comment. That's gonna help me to get better. Leave me a review. If you are watching on YouTube,

please hit that subscribe button and hit the bell so you get notifications on when new episodes drop. But Dr. Robin, thank you again. It has been my absolute pleasure to have you here on Just Human.

Dr. Robin Buckley (53:50.67)
Mine too. Thank you so much, Jay.

Jay Boykin (53:56.349)
So again, I want you all to go out, take some of these things that we talked about, and don't try to implement everything. Just try one thing. Try the weekly check-in and see how that lands. And until we come back together again, I want you to keep that growth mindset. I want you to keep growing, keep learning, and we'll see you back here on Just Human.