Episode 27 - Leaders Get This Wrong: “Lead Last” Changes Everything with Major Olaolu Ogunyemi

Most leaders think leadership means being first: first to speak, first to decide, first to act.
But what if the move that changes your culture isn’t being louder… it’s being later?

In this episode of Just Human, Jay Boykin sits down with U.S. Marine Corps Major Olaolu Ogunyemi, author of Lead Last, to unpack a leadership philosophy that flips the script: “He who leads last leads best.”

You’ll hear how Olaolu learned leadership through real-world responsibility—walking into his first role in charge of 80 Marines—and why humility is often the missing ingredient in high-performing teams. We dive into why self-awareness for leaders is the starting point, how to build trust like an emotional bank account, and the most common “withdrawals” leaders make without realizing it—like not listening.

We also explore the difference between a well-intended open door policy and why it can fail in practice, plus what it really takes to mentor emerging leaders, prepare the next generation, and leave a legacy that’s bigger than a title.

If you lead people (or want to), this conversation will challenge you—in the best way.

Connect with Olaolu Ogunyemi
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/olaolu.ogunyemi/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/olaolu-ogunyemi-465ba453/
Website: https://parent-child-connect.com/

Transcript

Jay Boykin (00:00.852)
Most leaders think that leadership means being first, the first one to speak, the first one to make a decision, the first one to act. But I am going to have a conversation with someone today whose thesis is completely opposite of that. And I want to just leave you with this. What if the leadership move that changes the culture for you isn't about being louder, it's about

being later. Let's talk about this. We're going to jump into it right now.

Jay Boykin (00:54.19)
Well, welcome to Just Human. And in this space, we are having honest conversations about what it takes to lead and to build and to grow personally. And, you know, we just have these honest conversations about the human stuff because here's the thing, life does not come with instructions. My name is Jay Boykin, I'm your host, and I'm very excited to have you here. I know that no matter where you're listening,

You've got a lot of different choices. So thank you for taking the time to listen to Just Human. So whether you are on your favorite podcast provider or on YouTube or Spotify, again, we appreciate you being here. Today, I am having a conversation with a US Marine Corps officer and an author, Major Alalu Ogunyemi. Lou, how you doing?

Olaolu Ogunyemi (01:48.259)
doing well, Jay. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for having me. I'm elated to have this opportunity to have this discussion.

Jay Boykin (01:54.51)
I've really been looking forward to this since the first time that you and I spoke. And I would be remiss if I didn't start with this. Thank you so much for your service and the sacrifices that you and your fellow Marines and everyone in our military makes and even the families as well, because there's sacrifices there as well. So thank you so much for all that you do for our country.

Olaolu Ogunyemi (02:21.453)
Yeah, thank you so much for acknowledging that. And I want to give a shout out to all those service members out there and the families. The families sometimes don't get credit for the sacrifice they make, but I'm glad you brought them up because they truly do put in a lot of hard work. And it's really cool to see all the things that they are able to balance while we're out doing our thing, while they're back here, just just dealing with some situations that, be honest with you, sometimes are more complex or complicated than what we're dealing with. So shout out to the families, military families out there that are also sacrificing.

so we could serve the country.

Jay Boykin (02:53.068)
Very well said, very well said. Lou, so for my listeners, they're gonna get to know you a lot better here during this episode. Talk to them a little bit about your background and what got you to this place that you're at today. And then we're gonna talk about your book here in a little bit.

Olaolu Ogunyemi (03:12.995)
Yeah, absolutely. So I was born in Ruston, Louisiana. I was a fifth to sixth children. So obviously from a large family and you'll understand why I love teams because I grew up in a very close knit family. We used to talk every day. My father came from Nigeria. He immigrated here from during college to Alabama and he went to school at Alabama A &M and got his doctoral eventually at the University of Illinois where he met my mom. And so really my family always prioritized education.

They prioritize increasing literacy and they just always talked about, you know, being there for each other, loyalty, teamwork, healthy competition, all those kinds of things were just things that we were talking about growing up. And so that was really what our value system was based on. It was based on just being there for each other and loving each other. And so I graduated myself from Grambling State University with a degree in computer information systems. From there, I actually went to work as a computer programmer at Tyson.

First of all, I love the company. I thought it was really awesome. The cool thing is I actually worked on a chicken farm in high school as well. So I feel like I saw from I always say from cradle to grave. Technically, I didn't work on a hatch farm hatchery farm, but I did see it when they were very young. And then I to join up with active duty in the Marine Corps. And I've been active duty ever since 2013 now. So I learned a lot in the Marine Corps. I've met some phenomenal people work with.

people all across the services, international environment. It's just been a phenomenal opportunity to not just learn about leadership, but to experience the right and wrong of leadership all around the world. So that's a lot about me and that's how I got to where I am now.

Jay Boykin (04:52.734)
Thank you for sharing that and I have to point out for my listeners so Lou mentioned that he was born in Ruston, Louisiana he went to Grambling State University, which is in Louisiana and That's where my family's from from Baton Rouge. I went to LSU So we are both LSU fans were both Saints fans. So we've we've got that we've got that connection as well. So I'm excited about that

But Lou, I want to jump into and ask you about this. Before I get specifically into the book, talk to me about how you started to learn about leadership as a Marine.

Olaolu Ogunyemi (05:36.653)
Yeah, so as a Marine, I started to learn about leadership, really about almost like trial by error, trial and error. It was one of those things that as a brand new Lieutenant, you come into this organization that you don't really know much about, but you're in charge immediately. I was in charge of 80 people. And this, when we're talking about people spanning from, you know, just arrived in the Marine Corps all the way to my most senior guy was in 19 and a half years.

And if you're talking about being intimidated by somebody, I was definitely intimidated by this veteran who had been all overseas. He had like five or six deployments. And again, he had been in already almost 20 years and at 20 years, that's retirement age. And so it was one of those things that I truly had to learn humility right off the bat. And I knew coming out of Louisiana, coming out of my household that that's really where it started. It started with not pretending to be the smartest one in the room.

and not trying to have all the answers. You just rely on your team and learn from them. And I think that's really what I had to learn. The biggest thing I had to learn about leadership aside from humility is just be yourself and know that everybody's different. And I think that's one of the hardest things that I had to learn is because I came into the environment, the Marine Corps environment, and I saw a version of leadership, specifically like in your early training, that drill instructor, that major pain-esque type leadership.

Jay Boykin (06:54.126)
You

Olaolu Ogunyemi (06:55.043)
You know, that's really what I thought that the leadership was about. You know, if you you say something once and if they don't follow it, then you go in and you demand it. You know, some leaders really emphasize that kind of stuff. Right. So they'll tell you that one of my biggest mistakes is not firing my poor performer sooner. And so you come into the environment thinking, OK, cool. Well, you know, somebody violates an order. I got to go out. I need to fire them. I need to take care of it. And you sort of.

Jay Boykin (06:57.698)
Right.

Olaolu Ogunyemi (07:19.351)
take on this persona that's maybe not who you are. And so that's really what I learned is first of all, humility. And then secondly, just be yourself.

Jay Boykin (07:27.532)
You know, it's been a while since I heard someone mention major pain. So that was a great pull right there. And, you know, I think that a lot of people expect that in the military, that that's the way that it's happening every day, top to bottom. And you're still in the Marine Corps. Talk a little bit, if you can, about your role today. What are you responsible for today?

Olaolu Ogunyemi (07:57.079)
Yeah, so today I'm actually I'm a communications officer by trade, which means I equated to being one of the supervisors in I.T. because our job is to provide data, network, radio services, no matter where we go in the world. And really, for me, my job is to supervise the subject matter experts. So I have systems administrators. have radio operators. I have all kinds of cyber network operators and things of that nature. And so my my role is just to find a way to provide the commander

his information technology architecture. And so that's what my role is in the Marine Corps. What that requires me to do is it requires me to be technically savvy. So I have to understand what's going on and at least I have the computer background to help me out there. But it also requires me to be...

to understand people on a little bit different level because Marines are always joking say Marines are special creatures, right? You know, it's it's like you have these these Marines if you were to watch there's a documentary that just came out I think it's called Marines if you really want to get into the mindset of some Marines just watch that documentary and you can just listen to some of the things that these Marines are saying you're like, well I don't know if he's supposed to say that on camera, but that's just you can imagine that that's just a normal thing and then you add to the normal like the

Jay Boykin (08:52.114)
Ha ha ha

Olaolu Ogunyemi (09:14.243)
Stigmas that come with the IT realm and those who are very technical and you add those two things together, you have some interesting individuals that you have to lead and work with. that's one of the things that it just, provides that true diversity that we're talking about. And I'm not talking about just color. I'm talking about diversity in personalities, experiences, character traits and abilities that allows you to try to flex your leadership to meet their needs.

Jay Boykin (09:41.262)
That's so good. I'm so glad that you said that as well. Now, you have written a book and I wanna talk about the book and the book is called Lead Last and I want you to elaborate on the principles that are in your book and how you came up with this.

Olaolu Ogunyemi (10:05.923)
Yeah, so it was one of those things that happened. And I tell the story in the introduction in the book. I quite literally was running and I wanted to talk about what leadership is. You know, I'm thinking about this. Honestly, it was going to be an article that I was working on trying to find things that work and don't work. And while I was running, I thought about the quote, he who laughs last laughs best. And so I modified that to say he who leads last leads best. And I sort of chuckled at it as I was running. But then it's sort of.

starts to stick with me and I'm like, okay, lead less. I like that concept because what I'm trying to explain there is that before you can become an effective leader, there's things that you have to do first. And the things are actually broken down in three parts within the book. First, it's know who you are, find out who you are. Because too often we try to lead from a place of not knowing who we are, not knowing the root cause behind our decisions. Secondly, know who you're leading. It seems pretty intuitive, but you would be surprised how many people just don't know

people they're leading. then lastly, it's to understand the environment you're in so that way you can cultivate an environment or a culture where you have self starters and creativity thrives. And that's what it means. So you do all these things first, and then you learn how to be you can become an effective leader. And by applying these principles over and over, that's when you're able to have lasting impact in the organization that you're in. And so that's what lead last is truly about is trying to find ways to

Number one, become an effective leader by doing all those things that I just mentioned first. And then leave a legacy behind in the organization. And I'm not talking about leaving a shiny object. I mean, truly leaving a legacy behind that makes the organization better in the long term.

Jay Boykin (11:48.044)
You know, you mentioned legacy and I was reading an article last night in Forbes that was talking about the power of legacy. And you said it really well. It's not about money. It's not about shiny objects, but the way that we impact the lives of other people and the way that we're able to

build them up and put them in a place where they can succeed. So I loved what you said there. Let me ask you this, Lou, when you mentioned that you came up with this while you were running, but the principles that are contained within your book, and thank you for sharing that with me as well, but what were you trying to solve when...

you wrote this book, were you seeing leaders getting something wrong and there was something that you were trying to solve?

Olaolu Ogunyemi (12:51.031)
Yeah, phenomenal question. So first and foremost, I was mentoring a young leader at the time or a few young leaders actually. And as I was walking through on the deployments where I took most of these notes, was probably about, it's 21 principles and of those 21 principles, I believe 19 of them were actually on the deployment. And I was walking around just sort of taking notes, things that I wish I knew when I was their age or excuse me, at their experience level, not age.

but things that I'm learning from my leader that I thought were great, things that I'm learning from leaders around me that I thought were not that great, and things of that nature. So I'm learning from my own experiences, I'm learning from the people around me, and I'm taking all these things and I'm just taking notes, I'm writing it down. And that's something I always recommend to people, especially leaders. You have to be journaling, you have to be capturing the moments that are around you so that way you can truly learn. And so I took those things that I learned and I sort of looked at them in my notebook.

because that's what I literally had a notebook of all these principles that I wrote down. And at the time I didn't know what it was going to be. And as I started looking at these things one by one, I'm like, okay, there's something here. And so I start researching these things one by one. Like, what can I learn from this experience? I think that this leader is doing this phenomenally. Okay, so what can I learn? And I started doing my research. Why is this effective? And I started thinking about it and said, that's why that's effective. Okay, I see this thing, it's not that effective.

Why is that not effective? Okay, and I started doing the research and then I found some examples of corporate leaders that are doing these things well. And I'm like, okay, now it's all gonna start to form up and it's making more sense. And initially I published the article on my website. was basically bare bones. It was just 21, I think actually there was 19 principles initially and it was sort of bare bones. Here's the ideas I had. And I slapped it up on the website. Cause I was like, I know I like the direction this is going. But then I looked at the article. I'm like, man, there's more to this.

And so I went back and started refining it even more. And I believe that the audience really for which is going to be emerging leaders, probably to about mid career professionals. I believe that target audience is going to have that book and it's going to resonate with them. There's going to be some things that I think millennials will love because I specifically wrote it as a millennial. in a way, I felt like I was writing as a millennial to millennials. And I think was writing to Gen Z as well. Now, I did share with some corporate executives as well.

Olaolu Ogunyemi (15:10.101)
And I love that they gave me feedback. Some of the things they told me is that some of the references in there, specifically like your more current social media, social things that are going on, can isolate the executive a little bit. But I truly believe that the advice they gave me, I took and put in the book, especially in the toolkit that you see in the appendix. And so that's really what it was all about, is taking notes of what was going on around me and then trying to apply it and give it to somebody else.

Jay Boykin (15:38.482)
And it's really well done. And the thing that I love about it, I'm going to share a story if I can with you. We talked about learning from our own mistakes and even some of the things that we've experienced. But I can remember a thousand years ago when I got my first position as a people leader. And I had the title

and now I've got these people that are reporting to me, 12 of them, and I'm 26 years old and you can't tell me anything at that point in time and neither could they. I figured that because I had the title and the office and the pay that

Their opinions didn't matter. I had all the answers. Just watch me and I got it. And that was the most epic failure. But I did use that throughout my career and remembered that mistake. at that time, I was putting myself first in all the wrong ways. All the wrong ways. So I think that your book speaks

to so many different individuals, regardless of where they are, if they're in a place where they are leading people and looking to improve, there is something that they can gain from your book. Let me ask you this, You mentioned that you've got 21 principles in the book. What's the biggest counterintuitive

principle that you have in there.

Olaolu Ogunyemi (17:38.892)
If I had to pick one, I would say that the one where I tell people, I tell people to implement the closed door policy. I truly believe that's going to hurt some feelings. And quite frankly, when I published a similar article, not too long, it was a few months ago now, it was not well received in some circles. Why? Because it seems like I'm telling people to close themselves off, be unavailable, not in things of that nature. But that's not the intent of what I'm trying to say.

What I'm saying is that in many cases, as I've witnessed and experienced, the open door policy gets abused. And I say that because in many cases, a lot of times the senior leaders, those who are like really close to that executive leader or whoever's executing the open door policy, they're the only ones that may go in and out of that door. And then you may have a couple of like real bold, confident people who may do it, but otherwise you're not receiving anything.

And if you're truly relying on that as your way of passing and receiving information, then you're going to make sure you're right then in there. You're now restricting yourself to just a few people who are coming in and out of your office. And I think that's really what the open door policy I've seen happen multiple times. And I've talked to different leaders in various organizations, not just the Marine Corps. And I've realized that when they said their biggest mistake is acting on information or assuming that everybody had the same information because somebody told them that.

then I was like, man, how is this happening? And what the common theme was is that there's this open door policy. They truly believe that they were being transparent and truly believe they're welcoming people in, but in reality, only a couple of people were taking advantage of it. And so they're saying things over and over and I think they're communicating their philosophy and their leadership philosophy or whatever you have, their intent and their vision for the organization. And they really are communicating it.

but it's not making it all the way through because they're relying on that open door policy. that's really probably the most, my favorite counterintuitive principle from the book.

Jay Boykin (19:31.384)
Right.

Jay Boykin (19:38.904)
So good, so good. So your framework starts with basically who you are before you start thinking about how you lead. And I love that so much because it connects with some of my own work. But talk to our listeners about why is self-awareness so important? Why is it so important for that to be first?

Olaolu Ogunyemi (20:07.149)
Yeah, because there's so many things that we do that we're not able to trace why we do it. And that goes from the way we wake up to the way we get dressed, sometimes what we wear, the way we wear our hair, the way we shave. There's a lot of things that go into who we are as an individual that we actually don't even examine and we don't understand. And to me, I don't understand how you could effectively lead somebody if you don't even know yourself. How can you form a relationship with somebody else

if you don't even know who you are, right? And I think that's really the first step in any kind of relationship, which we know leadership truly is. It's about connection and relating with others so that way you can lead them. And I think that's really why I believe it starts with that is finding ways to understand who you are, first of all, and understand what your insecurities are. And I think in many cases we are denial, because I know many leaders that will straight out tell you that they have no insecurities. And I think that's inaccurate.

But I truly believe it's understanding what your insecurities are and understanding what things you do and why you do those things. And that's why you start with understanding who you are, getting to know yourself, because I truly believe that's where it begins for all leaders.

Jay Boykin (21:19.948)
We are having an amazing conversation with Marine Corps Major Alalu Ogunyemi, the author of Lead Last. And Lou, in the book, you talk about trust like an emotional bank account. And can you elaborate on that and talk about what are some of the common withdrawals that leaders can make and maybe not even realize it?

Olaolu Ogunyemi (21:49.527)
Yeah, that's one of my favorite parts of the book because Dr. Stephen Covey, was phenomenal, phenomenally talented writer and philosopher. And I love all of his material. And that's where I got that analogy from or that metaphor from. It's talking about that emotional bank account and really tying it back to leadership. Some people, it makes them cringe a little bit, right? Because we don't want to talk about emotions in the workplace. But I think that once we realize that we're truly leading humans and humans have emotions,

it's hard for you to disconnect the two because humans are gonna bring their emotions to the workplace, no matter what your profession is. And I can say that as a United States Marine, and I can promise you that every single industry out there, if you're dealing with humans, they have emotions. And even some of the machines and electronics and AI have emotions because humans built it. So these are the things that we have to really pay attention to. And so the reason I talk about the emotional bank account, and I think one of the biggest withdrawals we can make from individuals,

Jay Boykin (22:32.182)
Yes.

Olaolu Ogunyemi (22:48.605)
is just not listening to them. I think that is probably one of the biggest withdrawals that we can make in the workplace because so many people deal with rejection in different ways. And some people deal with rejection, they take it personally immediately. Some people shut down, others become very competitive and they want to now find a way to show you that their way was better, which leads to recklessness. And I think that really that's what it's all about. It's one of the biggest withdrawals I think we can make as a leader.

is not listening. And I wrote down what you talking about earlier, because you talked about that title. And I want to say that that's a common thing for a lot of leaders, especially as they start off, because the organization is paying you to be a leader. The organization is paying you all this money, that they're saying that you're the expert, we hired you, you beat out everybody else to do this thing. So you actually are important, and you should carry that confidence with you.

The problem is, and many times, I think at times because we believe the organization is paying us for our opinion and our leadership abilities, we forget that that doesn't mean that we have to originate the idea. Sometimes we have to just bring everybody in the room, listen to them, and apply what the best solution is. And so I think that the biggest thing, biggest withdrawal that we can make would be just straight up not listening to people and that chance to turn them off and not want to follow your lead.

Jay Boykin (24:10.85)
So strong and we, feel, you my career path was much different than yours. You know, I know that you had your time at Tyson. You've spent the majority of your career working for the United States military. I spent the majority of my career in corporate America, but there's so many crossovers. And I feel that in corporate America, and I'll get your opinion on this,

We do not always do a great job of preparing our strong individual contributors for that first level managerial role. We assume that because they are a strong individual contributor, a high performer, when they're just focusing on their own desk, that that's going to translate into leading a small team.

And that's not always the case. And we do such a disservice at time for individuals who can be strong leaders, but we just haven't prepped them well.

Olaolu Ogunyemi (25:21.069)
Yeah, no, you're spot on. And that was one of the feedback I got. I gave people in my first unit. I remember I was checking out and the commander was shocked when I told him as a lieutenant, they said, I feel like that it could be a better, we could do a better job of sitting down and mentoring young lieutenants. I said, I did a lot of trial and error and I was figuring some things out. And luckily I had those veterans like I'm talking about, call them staff non-commissioned officers who would be like, hey man, come under my wing. I got you. Come here, sir.

You're really excited. You're really doing your thing. But come on under my wing. Let me teach you. was like, luckily I had them. But where are the people, the leaders in this organization who have been through exactly where I've been, who've been platoon commanders, who've been this operations officer, executive officer, and why aren't they now giving me more guidance? And to your point, I think a lot of times we say, all right, well, you know, the way I figured it out was I just try. I've went and figured out myself and it made me a stronger leader. And I think that's the problem. And for some reason.

Because we're so competitive and we spend our time, especially when we're trying to work our way up the career progression or the corporate ladder or whatever you call it. When we're trying to work our way up, I think it's sometimes we just straight up say, you know, I clawed my way to get here and I figured it out along the way. So that guy can figure it out, too. And to be honest with I just think that's the wrong answer, because I agree with Phillips and I can't think of his first name, but he wrote about Abraham Lincoln and he talked about.

that we are all learned leaders. And he wrote about a lot of different leaders to include Martin Luther King. And one of things he talked about in every single one of those books is that we are learned leaders. That means somebody took some time to teach you how to be a leader instead of you just figuring everything out by yourself.

Jay Boykin (27:02.73)
Amazing. Lou, I'm gonna pivot a little bit only because you and I were having a conversation before we hit record. And I think that either because of TV or social media, whatever the case may be, I know that many times there's a misconception about

men and how we handle our emotions. I think that people may think of you as a Marine as just being this stoic emotionless fighting machine. And you are a husband, a father, and like you mentioned, you're also a human being. And so, you know, what's your take on where our emotions

come into play when we start talking about leadership.

Olaolu Ogunyemi (28:04.183)
Yes. So first of all, now I love, I love the direction you're taking this because I truly believe that as leaders, emotional control is important, right? So it's not about just always being one emotion because you're right, as a Marine leader and really in any industry, there's a time where you have to be strong. You have to be stoic. You have to portray confidence and you can't walk out in front of people with your shoulders slumped and dragging your words and looking sad.

I was thinking about one of the when I was at Tyson, the CEO there, Donnie Smith. I can only imagine if he walked around slumping his shoulders the second that some bad press came in because there was bad press. And I'm sure there's still bad press any time you're dealing with animal products. But there was bad press at the time. I can only imagine if he just walked in front and comes like, guys, there's bad press. So what are we going to do? No, he had to project that confidence no matter who he how he was feeling on the inside.

I'm certain when the stock market drops or all these other things happen in the world around these organizations, I'm certain the CEO probably doesn't feel like being happy, you know, because he probably knows he's going to have to answer to the board. But in that case, he has to project confidence. So I think really as leaders, it's not about a one size fits all approach. It's about emotional control and knowing when it's time to demonstrate certain emotions. And so I believe that's where emotions fit in. For example, I had to learn a lesson the hard way.

really at home, because I truly believe home is the best leadership training academy. I learned that at home because I used to try to do the same thing that I would do at work. The Marine Corps, they teach you that you don't want to look tired in front of your Marines if you want them to be working hard. Because if you're looking tired, you're looking sad and you're looking cold, then what do you think they're going to start thinking? Man, that's the guy. He's the leader. He's the beacon of our hope. And he's looking tired and distraught and exhausted. See, we're doomed. And so I tried to bring that same mentality into my home.

And in certain situations, it almost seemed like I was emotionally disconnected from my family and I didn't even realize what I was doing. I'm trying now to project this confidence and look strong and be there for my family and look stable. In reality, they just thought that he didn't care. Right. And that's the wrong thing. And I love that I was able to learn that at home as a very, very young father. Luckily, I learned it less than early. But one of those things that I took back to work and I like, OK, well, if my family felt that tension, then I'm certain.

Olaolu Ogunyemi (30:28.727)
then my Marines will feel that same tension. If I go in and everybody is tired and I come in with this burst of energy and say, guys, we're going to do it. And I keep doing that. At some point they're going be like, all right, it was motivating the first couple of times, but now you need to truly understand what we're feeling because you may not be feeling the same thing. And so that's really what it's about. think it's about emotional control and knowing how to portray the right emotion at the right time.

Jay Boykin (30:54.646)
Lou, you've got two kids, right? Three, okay, my apologies. How old are your kids?

Olaolu Ogunyemi (30:57.357)
Three. Mm-hmm. you're fine. I have a 16-year-old girl, a 12-year-old boy, and a seven-year-old girl.

Jay Boykin (31:05.58)
Okay. And we were talking earlier, your family's going through, your son had a sports injury and is having a surgery tomorrow. you know, our thoughts and prayers go out to you and your family and hope everything goes well. You'll have to let me know how that goes. I'm curious that, you know, as you think about, you know, you're going through

this with your family, with your son specifically, how does your leadership framework, your lead last, how does that come into play when you're thinking about leading your family through what you're going through tomorrow?

Olaolu Ogunyemi (31:53.485)
No, that's a perfect question. So I started with knowing myself. All right. So I've been through a leg injury and I know how it felt. I know how it felt to go into surgery because I actually just had surgery just a few months ago on my knee. So I know what it's like. I know the questions you have in your mind. I know how sometimes that uncertainty feels. I'm not a guy who likes hospitals because, you know, just that's I just don't like them. So I started thinking about I know myself well enough to know that

If I didn't like it, then there may be some things that I need to look out for. The other part is, annoying myself allowed me to be emotionally available to my son who's going through this now. And so yes, he's the same way. He's going through his own emotions. But I always see him when I walk in a room, when he's with his mom, he's like, my leg. And I walk in the room, he sort of straightens up. And it's funny that that happens.

Because I'm thinking about it, I'm like, okay, what am I doing that's causing him to do that? Am I doing something or is that just his natural reaction to me? And so for me, again, it's introspection and saying, okay, am I doing something to cause him to want to hide his emotions? Or is he just trying to look tough for dad and is this just like a natural thing that he does? And so I think just going through that emotion, going through that actual thought process and using the framework in that place is saying, okay, I know myself, now I'm getting to know my son and trying to understand how is he dealing with this situation?

How does he feel in this moment? And if he is trying to look tough and be tough, like when can I now allow him to sort of depressurize in a way and to let those emotions out? And why am I, why wouldn't I present that opportunity for him with me specifically, not just with his mom, but to sit down with him on the couch and say, hey man, how are you feeling? And he says, I'm great. It's like, no, you're not. I can see it on your face. You're not great. You can share it. Just tell me how you're feeling. And so you have to know him to know that in this situation,

When I walk into the room, he changes, he straightens up. But I still have the opportunity now to get to know him and understand, okay, if he's doing that, is that healthy for him? And is this time for me now to go in and create this environment, which is the last part, create an environment for him to feel safe, to where he can express himself. So that way he can grow through this thing. Because I know many athletes out there say that nobody wants to do an injury. And I've been there. Again, I just had a surgery not too long ago.

Olaolu Ogunyemi (34:20.515)
And I'm just, still trying to get back to full, full speed and running and things of that nature. And I hate it to be honest with you as a guy who works out six times a week, I absolutely hate not being able to go to a hundred percent. But the lessons that we can learn through these, these situations are endless. so trying to find ways for him to learn through this situation without becoming a lecturer are important. So that's really how I use my framework in this specific circumstance.

Again, it's getting to know who I am and the things that I'm doing and how I'm reacting and potentially projecting ideas on him, knowing who he is and how he's reacting to the environment and his injury. And again, finding a way to create an environment where he can learn and feel safe to just express his pain or express his gratitude or happiness of what's going on.

Jay Boykin (35:07.756)
Yeah, way to make this old man feel really good with your six times a week working out. I'm happy if I get my two or three in, but you know, that's fine. I wanna, I'm giving you, I'm messing with you a little bit there. So you and I have had a couple of conversations and I feel like even from the first one, it went.

Olaolu Ogunyemi (35:12.099)
HAHAHAHA

Jay Boykin (35:33.007)
like there was a connection there almost immediately. And earlier you and I were talking about a couple of experiences as fathers and some of the challenges and the emotions that you go through as a father. I feel that as men especially that sometimes

those that we feel close enough to, we gotta call him out. You said something earlier about your son, you know, straightening up and, and seeming like he's okay, but you know him well enough to, to call him out and, and, and get him to talk about how he really feels. And I think that at times we need to do that for each other. How are you really doing? You know, don't, don't give me the courtesy answer. And, and, and this isn't just for men, this is for everyone. But I think that sometimes men can be

even worse at this because we've been just programmed to keep all those feelings in. And so, you know, I definitely appreciate the conversation that we had earlier talking about our experiences as fathers. And I definitely appreciate you creating a safe space for me to share what I shared with you earlier. I'm curious as to

you know, when you're around other Marines, you know, is that something that you're trying to encourage them to do is be in a place where they can kind of show up as they are in that particular moment?

Olaolu Ogunyemi (37:18.947)
Absolutely. And to be honest with you, in my younger days, and I say, I shouldn't say younger days, I will say my earlier leadership days, that's probably a better way to say that. I think that I did it in a strange way because I'll give an example. There's one time I was sitting there in the office and I'm trying to get this lieutenant to sort of loosen up, right? I wanted him to like understand, you know, just be yourself. The best way for us to learn, for me to learn who you are is for me to get you to

Just be yourself. Don't try to be a robot. This is the way that you can actually learn if you just relax. And what I did is I pulled out some bubbles. think I had, I don't know where I got them from. I think I brought a bucket from Halloween or something to the office. And there's like some bubbles in there. And I started blowing bubbles past his head just to like, just to like get him to loosen up. He sees these bubbles in the office and he's like, what in the world? And it's funny cause he brought that up like months later. And I was, we were sort of talking, it was a little bit of like a, you know, lessons learned, you

Jay Boykin (38:08.046)
You

Olaolu Ogunyemi (38:17.827)
What did you learn? You what can I do better as a leader? Things of that nature. He's like, I'm gonna be honest. I was not expecting you to come in and blow bubbles past my head. But, you know, I guess I understood what you're trying to get at. But it really is just trying to create an environment where to where, you know, they do understand that you can, you should be yourself. And I think that's really what it's about. Yes, you be professional. I'm not saying don't be professional. Blowing bubbles in the office is probably not professional. But you can, you know, be yourself.

in the office, in the workspace. And many times, and this is what I love, I still talk to lot of Marines that I have, to be honest with you, like this weekend, one of their anniversary is coming up. And every year we talk, we just call and we talk about anything. He's been retired now for last, I think four years, five years, something like that. So obviously he doesn't work with me anymore, but we've maintained contact. And I think that's what we built because he's in the office working hard.

And I knew his anniversary was this weekend. it just, this was, oh my goodness, I'm gonna say eight years ago now. But I knew his anniversary was up and I'm like, hey, what's going on? Don't you have an anniversary? And looks at me, he's like, oh my God, I forgot. And it was like a big one too. It was like a 10 year, 15, something like that. And it was one of those big ones. And he's like, oh, I forgot, oh my God. I don't know what I'm gonna do. And we sort of laughed about it. But again, that was just kind of environment. So yes, I do encourage them to.

to try to be themselves. Again, there's gonna be plenty of times where we gotta be serious. That's going to exist. There's gonna be plenty of times when we're briefing, you're not gonna be telling the joke to a senior leader in the middle of your brief. But there's also times when you can just be yourself, especially around your team, because I truly believe that's how you mail the team.

Jay Boykin (40:04.856)
So strong, so strong. So we talked earlier about leaving a legacy. If there's someone listening, if there's a leader who wants to help prepare that next generation of leader, what type of advice, what type of habits would you recommend to that individual who's trying to focus on that next generation?

Olaolu Ogunyemi (40:32.885)
Yeah, so first and foremost, if they're listening to this right now, that's the first step, right? So get out there and start learning from experiences that are more than your own. And I say that because there's so many people that don't read books anymore. I was shocked to hear a lot of the young people I was mentoring. asked them how many books they read a year. And some are like, yeah, I probably like two. And I was completely flabbergasted because I was like, I cannot believe that you just said you read two books a year.

Because how you, how else are you learning from other experiences around you? How are you learning? What are you doing to to better yourself? So I will start there. It's you know, find ways to learn from other people's experiences. Books, podcasts, audio books count in my book. Reading, learning, all those kind of things are important. The second thing is journaling, writing down what works and what doesn't work. And notice how I started again with the person sitting in front of you, because I know that's the first thing we think of when we want to leave a legacy.

is we always start thinking about everybody else or the thing that we can get. But in reality, it starts with the person who you see in the mirror, and that's you. And so that's where I think you start. It starts by building yourself up, building your mental capacity, your physical, your spiritual, emotional, becoming stable in those areas and consistently investing in those areas with yourself. And then teaching the people who you're leading those same kind of principles and just telling them those simple practical tips. For me, for example,

Jay Boykin (41:32.397)
Right.

Olaolu Ogunyemi (41:58.155)
I say take 10 minutes a day in every aspect in those four key areas, physical, mental, emotional, spiritual. Teach those people who you're leading to do the same, right? And what that does is now that you teach them how to take care of themselves and care for the environment that they're in, now they're more apt and more willing to actually work hard and work and do well in the environment. And then the last thing I will say is build off of prior successes. Too often I think what happens is that we, in order to leave a legacy and leave our mark,

We want to come in and do this big thing that's astronomically different from the last person. But what I truly realize is as I study innovations and creativity, in many cases, I mean, you name an industry, name media, name a clothing line, in many cases, all we do is take what's old and make it new and then call it innovative. And that's really why, again, go back to learn from experiences.

So find things that are good that the previous regime or organization or leadership or whatever you want to call them that they did and build upon that, build upon those successes. Cause that now you see what happens in organization as it continues to go higher and your name happens to be on the end of that. And that's something I learned from one of the units I was in.

I laughed because I was being told, you did such a phenomenal job and I'll keep telling them, oh, it's my Marines, my Marines. But then I went back and told the previous, the team that was right before me, I was like, you guys realize that I stole everything that you did well and I threw away the things that you didn't do well. I did, so I did the basics very well, brilliance in the basics. I took all these successes that you had, stacked it on top of the basics.

Jay Boykin (43:25.102)
Ha

Olaolu Ogunyemi (43:35.723)
And then maybe I have one or two like special projects that I added on top of there. And then it's like, man, this I've never seen this before. And I'm like, to be honest with you, I wish I was saying something that was that was really profound and that was like really cool that I did. But in reality, I just stuck to the most simplistic things. And I think that's what we need to do. If we want to leave a legacy, just go with the simple brilliance and the basics, build off of prior successes. And then you are ready to leave a legacy in an organization.

Jay Boykin (44:05.108)
Major Olaoglu Ogunyemi, so well said. Now you're up in the DC area, You were born in Louisiana. How often do you get back to the boot?

Olaolu Ogunyemi (44:12.898)
I have, yes.

Olaolu Ogunyemi (44:18.115)
Oh, at least once a year. I need to figure out what time or when I'm going in 2026. My dad's turning 70 this year, so I have to get back to spend some time with him. So at least once a year.

Jay Boykin (44:29.336)
So yeah, that's important. My dad just turned 82. My dad's in enemy country. He lives in Alabama. that, know, I struggle because I've got to go and deal with all of those Alabama cousins. But yeah, what's your favorite Louisiana meal?

Olaolu Ogunyemi (44:36.621)
You

Olaolu Ogunyemi (44:52.291)
Gumbo, hands down. I was gonna say crawfish just now, but the only reason I like crawfish, well I won't say the only reason, it's good, but the reason I like it is because of the environment. If people who've been to a crawfish bowl know that that environment that you're in, sitting around the table, to me that is the best environment to be in, but I would say gumbo is my favorite Louisiana meal.

Jay Boykin (44:53.55)
Mmm.

Jay Boykin (45:14.264)
So two things, I hate to brag on myself, but I'm going to. I do have an award-winning gumbo recipe, so my gumbo game is strong. And I will tell you this, you've got to open invite. Hopefully, we can make this happen in the spring sometime. my wife and I, so my wife is from North Dakota, and there are no crawfish up there, but I have turned.

Olaolu Ogunyemi (45:24.029)
wow.

Jay Boykin (45:43.182)
I've turned her into a crawfish eater. We do a boil here at the house every year. So it'll be nice to have somebody else around who actually knows how to eat crawfish right.

Olaolu Ogunyemi (45:56.355)
I knew it.

Jay Boykin (45:57.698)
And yeah, and we might have to figure out a time we either got to go to an LSU game or we got to go to a Saints game, but it would be great to connect in that way.

Olaolu Ogunyemi (46:07.715)
Yeah, for sure. I'm all about it.

Jay Boykin (46:10.026)
Where can people get their hands on your book?

Olaolu Ogunyemi (46:13.859)
Yeah, so it's coming out in June of 2026. And the best way to find anything about me or my book is go to my website. It's www.parent-child-connect.com. And you'll find all the things out there and especially, Lee last when it's launched. We're gonna do a big marketing effort with Amplify Publishing Group. It's gonna be fun. We're gonna have audio book too. So you get to listen to my voice. Hopefully it's not too bad.

But it's going to be fun. I'm very excited about this project. So again, that's parent-child-connect.com.

Jay Boykin (46:47.726)
I am excited for you and looking forward to when the book actually drops and you better do your own audio book. I'm never a big fan when people don't read their own books, especially for folks who are putting out the type of work that you're doing where you're trying to help people and help individuals to grow. think that...

we should be listening to your voice. So I love that you're doing that yourself. Lou, it has been an absolute pleasure having you on the show and we're gonna do this again sometime for sure.

Olaolu Ogunyemi (47:29.325)
Yeah, for sure, please.

Jay Boykin (47:31.34)
So for those of you that are listening here to Just Human, again, thank you. I know that there's a lot of things that you could be doing with your time. I appreciate the fact that you've spent nearly 50 minutes with myself and Lou talking about Lead Last. I want you to do me a favor. If there is someone out there that you think could benefit from this episode, share it with them.

No matter where you are listening, I would love it if you would leave a comment. That's going to help me to get better. Leave a review. If you are watching on YouTube, please subscribe to the channel, hit that notification bell so that you will know when I have new material coming out. Usually it's every week. And so again, I thank you so much. Here at Just Human, we're just trying to grow every single day.

And so until we are back together again, I want you to keep those minds open and keep on growing.