Episode 29 - Why High Performers Feel Empty (And How to Fix It) with Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (Nell3D)

Ever look at your life and think, “Everything is working… but I don’t feel good”?
That’s not failure — it’s misalignment. Let’s fix it fast.

In this episode of Just Human, Jay Boykin talks with Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (Nell3D), author of Going First, about how high performers can feel empty even with the title, money, and momentum. Nell shares her powerful story (including a wake-up-call car crash) and introduces a simple framework to diagnose what’s off — without blowing up your whole life.

You’ll learn Nell’s Lead in 3D model (ME / WE / WORLD) and how it connects to purpose, wellbeing, relationships, and integrity. Then she breaks down her systematic subtraction approach: Stop, Drop, Roll — a practical way to create capacity, reclaim autonomy, and rebuild energy in a nonstop world.

If this helped you, like, subscribe, and comment: Which dimension is lowest for you — ME, WE, or WORLD?


CONNECT WITH NELL 3D
SUBSTACK: https://nell3d.substack.com/guestpass
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#leadership #purpose #burnout #alignment #personalgrowth #intrinsicmotivation #autonomy #mindset #productivity #meaning #values #highperformance #justhuman #nell3d #stopdroproll

Transcript

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Jay Boykin (00:00.79)
So have you ever looked at your life and thought that everything is working, but I just still don't feel good? That is not failure. It is likely that you've got a misalignment somewhere in your life. And today I am speaking with someone that I am excited to talk to, but we're going to talk to you about giving you a simple way to spot that and fast and correct it without having

to blow up your entire life. So let's get into it.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (00:36.042)
Love it. So glad to be here with you, Jay. And look, if anybody wants to blow up their life, I'm not here to stop them. It's just if you don't want to, but you would like things to be better, I've got some easier solutions.

Jay Boykin (00:41.293)
Hahaha

Jay Boykin (00:45.932)
That's awesome.

Jay Boykin (00:52.162)
Well, welcome to Just Human. This is a space where we have some honest conversations about what it takes to lead and to live in today's world. And we explore the intersection of business and leadership and personal growth. And we talk about the practical stuff and the human stuff because success isn't just about what you build. It's who you become while you're building it. And I'm your host, Jay Boykin.

I appreciate you taking time to listen. We are available everywhere that you can get great podcasts and we are also on YouTube and Spotify and Apple Music. So thank you so much for listening. I am talking to someone again, I am super excited to have this conversation. Nell Derrick, Debovois Dewey, AKA Nell 3D and

Nell positions her work around helping high performing purpose driven leaders really find fulfillment without burnout. Nell is also the author of the book called Going First, Finding the Courage to Lead Purposely and Inspire Action. Nell, how are you today?

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (02:15.246)
I'm doing fabulously. That's one of my favorite ways to spend time. So thank you for the opportunity.

Jay Boykin (02:20.557)
Well, thank you so much for being here. I've been looking forward to this You know so much we've been talking for a little while and getting to know each other I would like to start out this way talk to me about how you started on this path of leadership and purpose

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (02:41.954)
Yeah. So like a lot of good stories, there's kind of three little acts and we won't do like Shakespearean tragedy length, but let me take you through the three acts. So the first, I'm 12 and I live in Hartford, Connecticut and they go to this fabulous elementary school. That's kind of everything I would hope a great American public school is, right? The teachers are really smart and engaged and the parents and it's a diverse class in all the ways. And I walked to school. It's fabulous. The school I would have gone to in that district at 13 for middle school is

Jay Boykin (02:48.365)
you

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (03:11.212)
not fabulous, like the wire, drugs, gangs, violence, like no physical safety to say nothing of academic enrichment or extracurriculars. So my mom, a self-employed massage therapist, hustles together whatever the resources to move us 400 yards across the town line into leafy West Hartford, Connecticut, where the public's yards, 400 yards.

Jay Boykin (03:35.999)
a whole 400 yards.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (03:41.42)
Right? Like even on my worst day, I can walk that far.

And these schools are nationally recognized. The teachers are brilliant. The jazz band tours Europe. Ski Wednesday is a thing. If you want to go skiing on Wednesday after, right, it's just night and day. And that kind of launches me off to Harvard and it's hallowed halls and the career from there. So very early as this kind of precocious and slightly obnoxious 12 year old, I was like, I should fix this. Like, this is suboptimal. And it wasn't like a pity party watching my friends go the way they went, but it really was like,

This is suboptimal. Those kids are equally talented and mischievous and all the things as these kids, but because of these 400 yards, because of that zip code problem, they're not being nourished and pushed and supported and structured to where they might go. So I went into nonprofit, right? In the late 90s, 2000s, that was kind of what you did to have an impact, but I was driven to fix this thing.

Fast forward a decade or so, well, two decades plus after being 12. And I'm in Palestine helping to open a community center for refugee kids and parents in a militarily closed off city there. And it's phenomenal. It is so aligned with my purpose of helping to spread opportunity more equitably. And I'm learning so much and I built this local team and they are changing lives and I'm getting to be part of it and it's magic.

I'm starting year four to get a little bit like career path concerned. I'm seeing my friends in New York kind of make junior partner, whatever you make in a bank when you're in your late twenties and you're doing great. They were doing that. And I was kind of isolated in this refugee community, which again, so meaningful, so purpose aligned, career wise, a little concerning. And then my dad died in his early fifties of brain cancer and I didn't go to the funeral.

Jay Boykin (05:23.873)
Right.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (05:41.614)
It was too far, I'm too busy, they really need me here, blah blah blah.

And that didn't land super well, if I was being honest. And within that year, my marriage fell apart.

Jay Boykin (05:55.096)
Okay.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (05:57.848)
So there you go, some pretty brutal pushback against this very earnest, heartful quest for impact that I had managed to really pursue. But the learning was that it was one dimensional. And so we share this vision that is not only ours, but we both have a real commitment to of, call 3D leadership or 3D success, which means

The world is part of your story, right? I believe that we all want to fix the world in some little way, no matter whether we're investment bankers or non-profiteers or bakers. But also there's a we tier. And we is your colleagues and your work for sure. And it is also your family, blood and chosen family. And right at the core is me. And if yourself is not well,

Jay Boykin (06:27.736)
Right.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (06:54.272)
intellectually and spiritually and physically and mentally and emotionally, all the rest literally crumbles. I know you call it the foundation, which is as true as can be. So I learned that I had to get aligned. I had to rejig this path that I was navigating and make it really 3D. And the final act, which leads us to where we are today, was just a few years ago.

And it was a beautiful summer day. I'm feeling aligned. I'm doing this work. It's great. I'm inspired. I love it. And I'm driving to the trainer because I'm perimenopausal and I need to build muscle. So I need to lift heavy weights and I'm driving to the trainer. And I glanced down at my phone and I drift out of my lane and go head on into a 20 ton landscaping truck.

Jay Boykin (07:38.986)
no.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (07:43.362)
Thank the angels. Everyone walked away unharmed. According to the firefighters, we should not have. It was really nasty. My car was totaled. The truck was a truck, so it was OK. And I understood that no matter how aligned, how purposeful, how inspired, blah, blah, blah, when you're doing too much or thinking too much, it's actually dangerous to you, but also to the people around you.

And that was a real aha. And thus, we talk about systematic subtraction.

Jay Boykin (08:21.312)
Wow, that was very powerful. And I'm definitely glad that you were okay from that accident. Nell, talk a little bit about you. You used this word a couple times where you talked about feeling aligned. And yet, you were feeling aligned, but yet something was still...

not quite right because you were doing too much. Talk a little bit about that.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (08:56.206)
Yeah. So, you know, aligned is directional, right? And it's super important and it's super motivating, right? So our kind of me-we world as I see it, I know you're an academic nerd too, and all of your thinking. And one of the nerdy academic pieces I pull in is intrinsic motivation, right? So this is pretty old, Desi and Ryan from the 90s classic psychology. They talk about autonomy, me, mastery.

we, how I deliver to my team, and then purpose, which is world. And so when you get this 3D alignment, it's no shock that the two of us talk about it and other smart people do, too. But when you get that alignment, it's phenomenally motivating. Again, you can fire on all cylinders. And it's not that you don't need rest, because we're human bodies and we need rest. I've always said, I'm inherently really lazy. I love to read.

pet my dog's belly. And people laugh at me, like, are you kidding? You psycho with five graduate degrees who started a company written about like, come on. Like, no, no, truly, if I weren't aligned, if I did not have that intrinsic motivation lined up, I don't want to, my first job was like that. It was not aligned. And I cried on the doorstep of my office. was such a spoiled little brat. You what was I doing? Anyway, so the alignment is really important, but that's only directional. We also need to think about energy.

flows, right? And the quantitative piece of that. And so it's not linear. We'll talk plenty about systems. But not all effort is created equally. Not all rest is created equally. And we can't just give, even if it's in the right path, you know, infinitely. Or we crash, hopefully not as literally as I did.

Jay Boykin (10:45.294)
Right, right. You know, it's interesting now that you talk about that because, and you and I've had this conversation before, and when I was in my corporate job and doing all the long hours and doing all these things, there would be times that I would just literally crash. I felt like I could not.

keep going at times. And then I think about now and the work that I'm doing now with my own business, working on my book, this podcast, all the things. And I'm working likely harder than I've ever worked in my life, working longer hours than I've ever worked in my life, but it feels different.

You know, when I lay my head down at night, it feels different. And when I get up in the morning, the level of energy and drive is just different than before. And so that definitely resonates what you just talked about. As we start to think about high performers and...

the leaders that you're writing to in your book. Why is it that you think that so many leaders, so many high performers can still feel empty even though all of the other things seem to be going well? They've got the title, the money, the stuff. I'm assuming that it's connected to everything that you've talked about so far, right?

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (12:38.082)
Yeah, it's one dimensional, right? That's all we level stuff. And there's nothing wrong with it. You want to build wealth and have money to have experiences or to give money away or to provide security. Like, awesome, same. I'm here for it. The title and the influence over a company, great, same. If it authentically, truly, honestly connects,

to your sense of world, which does not have to be curing cancer. If you're not a billionaire or a scientist, please don't try to cure cancer because you cannot. So get your mammogram, have your friends do the same, and that's your part. But you're not positioned to cure cancer, so let that one go. But if your work that you're doing, if you can somehow align to providing dignified work for others,

slowly, slowly taking plastic out of the supply chain, maybe a little more quickly eliminating gender or racial gaps in your pay equity by having the accountants track that data. These are all very impactful ways that we need corporate leaders to show up. I don't need corporate leaders to come help the mental health of the kids in Palestine because they have no idea what they're doing. So if they want to give to that organization, it's still going strong. Please do. But we have to get really clear.

There's nothing wrong with the we level goals if they are ideally aligned and at least not in conflict with the world that we care about shaping or the me, the physical, mental, emotional, social, spiritual me that needs to be intact before any of the rest of it happens. And so it's that one dimensionality that I see most often, most simply.

Jay Boykin (14:32.91)
So it sounds like from your me, we world is those have to be in alignment. There's gotta be a synergy there. And if there's too much focus on one of those and maybe there's another one that's missing, then, you know, so for example, if,

If there's not a connection to the world, if we can't figure out why we're here and why we're doing the things that we're doing, then that can contribute to why individuals can feel the type of things that you were describing, that you were feeling in your life, right?

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (15:18.67)
Absolutely. I mean, look, really, it goes back to that basic psychology, or not basic at the time, but foundational psychology research of intrinsic motivation. Because the problem, often the problem in burnout, sometimes it's simply that we're doing too much. But a lot of it, especially for these high performing leaders and these caring, ambitious humans who want to leave the world a better place, they hit a wall of not caring anymore, actually, if they're being honest. Because your exact point just now, right now, you're working

more, harder, more creatively, more varied, because you don't have a tech team, than you ever did before. And yet, you feel great.

So it's not necessarily that they're sitting there actually so exhausted from sending 2,000 emails, which is tiring. But it's that you lose that intrinsic motivation because those other two elements aren't there of autonomy. I have enough control to be able to not be falling asleep at my kids' dance recital. And then purpose. I have some sense of why it matters, not as Mother Teresa, but

to create dignified jobs, remove class, know, whatever that tidbit of the work is for you that makes the world a slightly better place, we need those to stay motivated.

Jay Boykin (16:38.658)
So, Nell, for the person who is listening to this and, you know, maybe they are feeling off, but perhaps they're not quite sure how to identify whether it's a me, a we, or a world aspect that is off. What's your guidance there? What are some things that my listeners can think about doing where they can begin to...

really evaluate where they are in their life.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (17:10.574)
So the first thing to acknowledge is that improvement is only possible when there's available capacity.

Jay Boykin (17:20.782)
Okay.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (17:21.002)
We can only improve something if there's some resource, energy, time, money to do something about it. And so the first step, that's why subtraction has become such a saving grace and transformational factor for me and as it spreads with other people. And again, like the three dimensions, other folks are talking about versions of this.

So that the action to take and the muscle to build is just the first step. There's three steps to subtraction as I've seen it to come and we can talk about it if you want, but just the first step of stop.

which is stopping to pause and gather some data about from your own seat, right? So like think of it as how's this really going about your kids, about your career, about a sickness you might be facing, about your whole entire life and your, you know, legacy at whatever scale. How is this really going?

and getting a little bit of data, whether it's quantitative or qualitative. I've been feeling nauseous every time I go into this meeting or external. I haven't been getting called back by the clients that used to call me back. This is not prescriptive. It's a lens. And so I can't tell you what that data is. In this world of onslaught of alerts and urgency and news and chaos and demands and clients and pressure and growth, to take

Jay Boykin (18:45.517)
Right.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (18:58.062)
60 seconds or a few minutes or a day a year, know, again, whatever your flavor can be while running or meditating or cooking or cuddling the dog. I don't know what your form is either, but actually stop and check in with how is it really going.

Jay Boykin (19:16.406)
So now let's lean in here and I do want to spend more time talking about more of the these steps. But we live. So yes we have to stop and pause and we've got to make room for this self assessment. But we live in a world that is nonstop. Everything is fast and.

I read a book recently called 4,000 Weeks and it really talks about how many of us think about pausing as even a sign of weakness. Look at you. Look at you. Mine's in there. I can't go get it. But yeah, I love that book. But how do we change the mindset that

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (20:03.298)
Good one.

Jay Boykin (20:13.646)
Not only is it okay, but it is vital that we make some space in our life, in our schedules to just pause and just be.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (20:28.972)
You know, it's just a choice.

It's just a choice. And so like, I'm sure you've seen colleagues or you've experienced yourself and listeners have seen or experienced themselves. It comes from the tragic suicide of a friend or a cancer diagnosis or getting laid off or a car crash or so if you want to wait, feel free. Something will come for you.

Or you can get quiet and get honest, not comfortable, but honest and recognize that that is not healthy. That is not the way to the biggest actual form of success. That is not actually worth your life. And so, yes, it's fast. And there is a massive infrastructure of engineers and behavioral psychologists and advertisers.

who are making it so.

But if Viktor Frankl could get through the Holocaust alive and with a flame to live, you can make the choice to in small little ways resist this insanely fast pace. Not blowing up your life and losing your job and losing your health insurance. I understand that there are some real hard stops here. But I have yet to meet a single human, including incarcerated entrepreneurs who I work with.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (22:03.106)
that can't make a single choice about little bits of resistance of that to get a little more checked in.

Jay Boykin (22:11.138)
Right. Now talk about you said something there and then we'll talk about step two, but we're still talking about stopping and pausing.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (22:20.11)
wherever you survey, it's an important one.

Jay Boykin (22:22.21)
But you mentioned that we need to get quiet, but not comfortable. Lean in on that distinction a little bit there because I think I know where you're going with this, but I think it's important.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (22:36.226)
You know, it's one of the things that really appealed to me that popped when we got connected about just human. Like, this is not rocket science. I have a lot of fancy degrees and I am so grateful for them and I am so grateful that they open doors. But honestly, stop. Get quiet. Take time to pet your dog's belly. Show up and giggle with your kid. Be nice to your colleagues like.

This is not rocket science. So listeners, I am sure you are fancy engineers and doctors and complex financial experts and lawyers, and you're doing all kinds of complicated things good. But this part of managing our energy and how we live is just human. It's not rocket science. And yet we have been disembodied and incentivized by all these BS algorithms.

and gotten inhuman, frankly, in this age. And so it's all of a sudden not comfortable to be in our real selves, in our bodies, and realize that we're headed towards scoliosis because of how we sit and look at our phones and computers all day. It's pretty uncomfortable if you're really paying attention.

Jay Boykin (23:56.78)
Yes.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (24:00.239)
And so, no, it's not necessarily comfortable, but let me tell you, it is worth it, right? It's type two fun like running a marathon. Like, I'm never gonna do that. I hate running. But if you are, even runners tell me they hate marathon training. It's hard. It's demanding. You can't drink for nine months. You can't see or fit. it's a pain in the ass. But the joy of eventually running or completing the marathon or whatever piece of it is so rewarding. Same. Same.

Jay Boykin (24:27.352)
That's.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (24:28.002)
The first few moments of quiet are not necessarily comfortable, what they make possible is monstrously worth it.

Jay Boykin (24:37.206)
Yeah, I mean, you said Just Human a couple times there. I feel like I need to say that this segment of Just Human was brought to you by Nell3D, so thank you for that. So we're taking the moment to pause and get quiet, not comfortable. So once an individual has made space for that, what's next?

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (24:47.726)
You're welcome.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (25:05.58)
And just to remember in there, in the quiet, it's not like white space blank mind quiet, right? It's to gather data. It's getting quiet so that you can hear the actual authentic data that you need to hear. exactly right, exactly right. Then we get to drop, right? This is the, everyone's like, I can do less, fabulous. Tell me how, or they're terrified. But either way, this is where we drop. But it is not.

Jay Boykin (25:17.634)
We're assessing, we're taking an inventory of what's going on, right?

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (25:34.219)
in a radical permanent embargo, again, blow up your life, quit your job, leave your spouse kind of way. It's an experiment with some maybe very small piece of what you noticed isn't actually going that well. So favorite relatable example from a real situation, recurring meeting. I haven't spoken up in that meeting in

as long as I can remember, at least several months. I have no decision-making authority. Now there's a very good AI summary that's sent out seven to 10 minutes after the meeting ends with any action steps, including tags for anyone who needs to do anything. And so next Tuesday afternoon, I'm not going to go to that meeting. I'm not going to decline the calendar invite. I'm not going to necessarily tell anybody about it. Disclaimer, use your judgment. Don't get fired if you can't get fired.

do what you need to do to not get fired. But in a lot of places, I have seen this work, you just don't go. And with those 45 minutes, based on what you learned in your stop moment and the assessment that you did, mini or major, you use that 45 minutes differently. Maybe you clean out your inbox, right? It's not necessarily that you like write a new life treatise or mentor a small child. Just maybe clean out your inbox in those 45 minutes, right? Or,

do read some research papers you've been meaning to read that would actually allow you to contribute better should you have a follow-up or in a meeting where you do have decision-making authority and see how that goes. And if you don't miss the meeting and if nobody asks you about it, don't go back. If you miss it, you have my wide and generous permission and encouragement. Go back to the recurring meeting and sit silently and don't contribute and don't make a decision. Amen.

Good job. So this is the level of subtraction we're talking about. We're all pretty optimized people. So look, there are moments for revolution in your life. That's not what I'm talking about here. There is some really pretty low-hanging fruit when we get honest. And then it builds momentum, and there's more fun subtractions that we can get into. But for now, it's a small experiment.

Jay Boykin (27:50.223)
I love that so much because there are many people who are very uncomfortable with saying no. They are those individuals that will, even if they have zero capacity, they're still gonna say yes. And I'm talking about in the workplace and even at home. So if you are a stay at home parent,

and you are dealing with kids activities and family obligations, all of these different things, and your best friend comes over and asks you to do something and you still say yes, even though your soul wants to scream no, that could be part of the area that we need to think about dropping is learning how to say no as well, right?

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (28:43.982)
A thousand percent, a thousand percent. I have a really fun one that just came up in another conversation with a client on the personal front that I'll just share because it's really evocative, I think, as I share it. This woman's like, I go all in. That's who I am, right? I'm an achiever. I go all in on everything I do. And so we were talking about soccer and the kids and whatever. And I'm like, look, if it nourishes your soul and maybe even gives you that stop break to make these...

anti-inflammatory flax seed locally sourced brownies that you're making for the entire team every week. You have my blessing. Do that because it's a break for you. It's a stop. It allows you a conversation point with the other moms or dads. You get to support these local businesses who are providing the flax seed. Like, go for it. But that's very different than, oh, God, it's soccer.

I have to make something. certainly can't buy something. I certainly can't make Toll House cookies because that's, you know, gluten and that would be horrible. Okay, I'll have to this and I'll have to give them out one by one so that everyone knows and gives me credit and the gold star I deserve for doing it.

So that's where subtraction is not actually about doing less necessarily. Maybe because many of us are doing too much. I was doing too much and I crashed. But now it's more about, and this brings us to step three, which is connecting the dots and roll of making sense of what we're doing. And again, this is where it's not rocket science because if you listen to those two versions of making the anti-inflammatory

flaxseed brownies or going to the recurring meeting, right? Like we can paint a picture where it makes a ton of sense in that recurring meeting. I have no decision-making responsibility. I haven't spoken up in weeks. And I get to see a few people from other departments who I would eventually like to work for. And every third week in the five minutes after, we share a laugh or maybe a coffee. And you know what? That's how I'm going to ladder over to that department.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (30:50.178)
So I'm going to keep showing up to that recurring mating and I'll smartly multitask without looking like a jerk and without being totally distracted or making typos in my emails. Fine. That's a great thesis.

Right? But this role part is where we do that dot connecting of how does this effort actually make sense to me, the wise, autonomous human that I am.

Jay Boykin (31:07.981)
Right.

Jay Boykin (31:20.14)
So good. So, Nell, I'm going off script a little bit because you said something there where you're talking about you mentioned being a wise, autonomous human. But many times we will get in a place where we are not exercising the autonomy over our own lives that we're born with.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (31:26.396)
no, I hate that.

Jay Boykin (31:50.317)
We do what other people expect us to do. And you've got 14 degrees. I don't know if it's that many, but you've got a lot of degrees. But sometimes we end up on a path that wasn't scripted by ourselves and we're doing things based on what we think other people expect. And then it just becomes rinse and repeat because that's all we know at that point in time.

So that concept of really taking back our autonomy, our ability to control our own lives, that feels really important, like a very important point of the first steps that we've talked about.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (32:42.936)
thousand percent and I cannot do it for none of us can do it for anyone else. That is where we come back. It is just a choice. What kind of life do you want to live? And I no pressure, no shame. We've all been places, no regrets, right? But, but ultimately day after day and it's not that it's a single choice you make once and then it all goes well.

But the power that I've found and that I see of this subtraction mindset is that at least you're building the counter muscle. So our muscle to do more and to try harder is very well developed. But this muscle of what to let go of, what to say no to is totally undeveloped, right? We don't do that. That's not rewarded.

And so that's the invitation here is to try that on, to experiment with that, to build that muscle. And then what I can promise is that next time you find yourself too far down a path of expectations, you've got somewhere in here a tool and a lens that might help to recognize and unwind it.

Jay Boykin (33:55.361)
Now because we teased it a little bit, I feel like I would be remiss if I didn't allow my listeners to get more insights into you. Talk about all the degrees that you have for a moment.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (34:10.61)
They're very expensive. Do you want me to talk about my student loan debt?

Jay Boykin (34:14.926)
That's on you if you...

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (34:18.904)
So it exists. I'll leave it at that. It's not that interesting. Yeah, so I went to Harvard. I didn't think I wanted to. I was like, they're going to all be nerds I'm going to hate it. Turns out I'm actually a big nerd. And also, there's a lot of different kinds of people at Harvard. So I studied psychology there. I loved it. It's not the greatest undergraduate experience from an educational perspective on the planet at all, from my experience.

It was fine. I had a great time and it's the best brand in the world, certainly in education and arguably in any other. And I say best brand again, not from a quality of education point of view, but from a brand point of view. And so I'm very grateful to the doors that that has opened and the H-bomb that I get to, you know, deploy whenever I so choose in my life. And then I taught English for a few years and my brain felt kind of bored.

just because the way I was teaching, know, just they weren't stimulating teaching engagements. And so I went to Cambridge and did an M-Phil in politics, democracy, and education. was this really beautiful interdisciplinary social science and philosophy and pedagogy in a UK way, right? So super free form, very little structure or guidance. And because I was two years out of school and so hungry to learn, I really dove deep and got a lot out of it.

my master's just because it's relevant was all about how when we over legislate or over regulate systems or organizations, we erode our inner sense of morality. So maybe that'll be for next time or if you want to dive in, we can there. But that was relevant from whatever that was, 2005 or something.

And then I enrolled in a master's in Italy in intercultural education, which was brilliant and fascinating topic and taught in Italian. So it was a good stretch, but it was a play to get a visa to be able to live where my then boyfriend, now ex-husband lived. And that was the immigration strategy at the time from the Italian authorities. So that was kind of an accidental degree, but really fabulous. And then I got two MBAs at the same time in an executive global program between Columbia and London Business School.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (36:39.406)
I tried to let them just give me one and pay half, but they were not up for it. So I full freight and have two diplomas sitting somewhere. And that was magical. First, because it turns out MBAs are actually really like academic and intense. I had never studied anything, finance, accounting, any of that. So was actually really, I was kind of a snob coming in like, oh, business school, whatever. Actually really academically rigorous, humbling.

And I was one of 72 classmates aged 29 to 44 from like 53 countries living in those countries. So like we were flying in from Singapore and Seattle and Rio and Paris and London to class for five days together once a month. And the richness of that learning and party experience that we had over those two years was

of absolutely a thousand percent the most formative educational, personal human experience I've ever had.

Jay Boykin (37:44.942)
Is that it? Is that all the degrees and all the schools?

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (37:47.406)
I've always said that my PhD will just be like honorary like I'm just gonna let him give it to me at this point I don't think I'm gonna work for it, but then a few friends are doing Pete I just found this really cool program at Columbia

Anyway, maybe in my 50s.

Jay Boykin (38:02.584)
What about, I mean, you didn't mention Oxford. You gotta get your PhD maybe from Oxford.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (38:07.778)
Maybe Yale's right down the road. We'll see.

Jay Boykin (38:12.718)
Yeah, you gotta hit more of those big prestigious schools. So Nell, I have to say that you're probably the single most educated individual that I personally know, but also the most down to earth. And so I definitely appreciate that. And our conversations have always been so easy because of that. I'm curious, when we think about your book,

We've talked a lot about high performers. We've talked about leaders. And I think that at times it's implied that we are talking about corporate America, know, high level governmental officials, that type of thing. But you don't have to be in that space to truly lead

purposefully, you know, if you're a teacher, a small business owner, whatever the case may be, we don't have to assume that you're Elon Musk in order to be a leader,

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (39:26.51)
Please don't be. I got to see Walter Isaacson speak last night and he was talking about his new book, which is really actually quite beautiful about the American Declaration of Independence. But of course, someone in the audience asked about Elon and he was like, the audience member was like, you know, it seems like he's no empathy and he's definitely on the spectrum slash like maybe evil and highly creative and talented. And Walter was like, you kind of got it. Like there's nothing real more to say. I wouldn't debate any of that. That's all. So don't be Elon.

Of course, like this is a concept that I play with around this is the missing 1%, right? So exactly your opening of like, it looks all very good, but something just isn't quite there is that what I call that missing 1%. And a playful, you I have lots of ideas about what I want to write and say, and my agent and people tell me I need to stay focused, but you gave me an opening. So the play that I had was the missing...

1 % is like probably a lot more than 1 % of the population right now who are not leading from wherever they are. Because it's not about Elon. Elon is who he is. And thank God, he's really brilliant. And so he's doing amazing things and bringing back NASA astronauts that NASA can't get home. So in some way, thank goodness. But what about?

his chief of staff, or his CFO, or his CHRO, or his board, or his investors, or his biggest customer, or the government who hired him over and over. All these other humans had some pretty incredible leadership opportunities over the last 10 years to not let him brandish a chainsaw at hundreds of thousands of public servants' jobs.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (41:21.578)
So those are still positions of relative power, but it extends to the point that like the mom making or joyfully not making the anti-inflammatory brownies for the soccer team has that same choice to lead and model leadership in a really intentionally loving aligned way that like

Jay Boykin (41:34.109)
Ha ha ha ha.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (41:46.571)
influences the next generation in a one-to-one or one-to-seven way. I have never felt more impact than when I was overseeing this little team of seven serving a few hundred kids, right? Like small is really potent. And I wasn't a mom, right? If you're a mom shaping what your kids eat and watch and see and hear and do for 18 years, like there's nothing more impactful than that.

Jay Boykin (42:19.094)
Yeah, it's amazing now that you, the things that you're talking about are so, they're resonating so powerfully with me because, you know, in my career, I've worked for small, medium, large companies, publicly traded, hundreds of millions of dollars, billions in some cases, and,

The amount of energy that I get from working with small business owners right now who may have a business that just earned their first million and being able to work with them, it drives me more than when I had the opportunity to, when our company did our IPO and we,

we had the opportunity to go and ring the bell. And so it's really amazing that you don't have to be at these upper echelons. It's finding where your purpose is and finding what is driving you in this world that's the most important thing.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (43:40.107)
Exactly. that's it. Like, honestly, if I could, you know, I could probably the next book is what we're really talking about here. And it's called Subtract to Succeed. And probably I'll have to break it to my agent. It could just be like subtract unhelpful thinking, inherited shoulds and outdated habits. Period. You're welcome. Because the point is that it's just about getting to our unique path. Right. I call it our one billionth. So

Jay Boykin (44:06.616)
Right.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (44:09.154)
There are 8 billion ways to heal the world and we need one person to do each of them, but only one. And so to your point, like your story of finding what you're doing now and being so much more energized by it, hallelujah, congratulations. Like the world is so lucky that you are courageous enough to do that and that you continue to pursue it. And presumably, maybe you know them or maybe not, there's a person out there who rang that bell and felt so gratified.

at the financial engineering they had done or the sales team that they had built or the legal partnership agreement for franchisees that got them to that point, that that is right where they should be. Great. Right? The problem comes when we lay on this BS from the outside about what it should look like. And then we end up all contorted, you know, square pegs and round holes like

Jay Boykin (44:53.004)
Yes.

Yes.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (45:09.114)
bruised and compressed and with scoliosis not able to contribute our full self and the real important thing is that that doesn't serve anybody well. It doesn't serve your mom who said she wanted you to be a doctor. It doesn't serve your patients who now you're a doctor and you're a bit resentful. Believe me, we've all had doctors who shouldn't have been. You know, so I think it's just it's like again, just subtract the unhelpful thinking of what it should be and get

about how it is actually going. Because, I mean, I think we've shared the Howard Thurman quote, the world does not need help, right? It's more eloquent than that. But the powerful part is it needs people who've come alive. So go figure out what makes you come alive and go do that.

Jay Boykin (45:57.101)
So good, so good. Now, the work that you've done with me, we, and world, I was so pleasantly surprised that it aligns so much with the work that I'm doing with just human. I call it different things, but I think that it's a strong message that we need this.

You know, I talk about it as connection to self, connection to others and connection to a shared purpose, but that's me, we and world. And I feel like there is, you know, there's such a strong message there that so many people need to hear that we need that in, we need that in our world right now.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (46:52.43)
Yeah, yeah. And look, I'm a very spiritual person, not certainly religious, and the Holy Trinity is, mean, threes are everywhere in nature. It's the most stable stool. If you happen to be in shop class building a stool, there's something magic about that number of three. And even in versions of the Miwi world, we're not the only ones to say that. And I think the point is that we don't have to teach this. We have to just remember it.

and give ourselves permission to recognize that it's not an accident, it's not like woo-woo or unrealistic, it's foundational to how we are in this world. And if we don't start bringing that lens back into our decision-making and leadership processes, we're gonna be in bigger trouble than we are right now, which is already pretty big.

Jay Boykin (47:46.573)
Yes, yes. I have something from your book that I'm gonna ask you about here, but before I go there, talk to my listeners about what is it that you're doing now? I know that you're working on another book, but what specifically are you working on day to day?

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (48:10.946)
Yeah, right now, the really fun thing that is taking a lot of my time and energy, but paying me back in spades in learning and deepening my practice of subtraction is a daily practice in systematic subtraction. It's happening on my sub stack. And so I'll include for listeners, I'm super happy to pass a guest pass so they can come play. It's on the paywalled section.

And I don't want that to be a barrier to anyone. So a lot of employers actually will reimburse this as kind of learning or leadership development. It's 80 bucks a year. But in the meantime, we'll get them a guest pass. They can check it out and see if it resonates. But it's a daily practice. So every day, there's a little note that comes out at 8.08 Eastern time. And it has a very truly, I know I'm not prone to bite size, but it has a very bite size prompt and a song.

very carefully, thoughtfully chosen fun song, not by me, just to be clear, like an official good professional song, that builds this muscle that helps kind of get the practice of stop and drop and roll. So Monday presents a topic, Tuesday is a stop, Wednesday is a drop, Thursday is a roll, Friday, Saturday, Sunday are more light and we integrate and there's a quote or a picture. And it's been very...

Jay Boykin (49:08.162)
You

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (49:29.71)
I mean, I'm learning so much. I'm hearing really interesting things from people. But it really has, you know, my work is somewhat nerdy, but tends to be pretty practical by nature. That's kind of how I see things. And this has made it like really tactical, know, tight and short and every single day. So that's been amazing. It's really fun. And I eagerly welcome anybody who finds that compelling to come and play and join us.

and then the next thing that I love doing and spending time on is, is, teaching and guiding this in community. And so sometimes that's like this, which is great with a brilliant host and conversation partner or on stage on a fireside or a keynote. Don't stop. Just be human. or, facilitated conversations. So I work with groups of women usually, though not exclusively who influence capital.

Jay Boykin (50:14.393)
stop it.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (50:29.152)
and or culture, right? So these are board directors, executives, heads of family, joint leads of family. And we get together and we talk about this kind of salon style. Obviously there's some teaching, but that can often happen offline beforehand so that we make the most of the time we're together. And that just brings absolute joy to my heart. And I learned so much and I'm so rewarded by seeing these stewards, right? These big hearted.

ambitious stewards get the permission and see the opportunity to care for themselves so that they can care for their people better and more sustainably.

Jay Boykin (51:11.436)
So I will make sure that we put a link out to your sub stack. What is your website or your socials now if people want to follow you?

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (51:22.35)
Yeah, Nell3d.com is the website. And so everything's kind of linked from there, including the sub stack on LinkedIn. I'm all the things now, Nell3d actually works and I'm quite promiscuous and open on LinkedIn. So please hang out there. I'm always super happy to have a conversation there. Instagram is still NellDD, just two D's. So that's a little confusing. Nell3d hasn't used her handle in ages. I'm trying to get it, but that's a battle that I've subtracted.

think that's all. I'm not on TikTok, not on Facebook, not on it.

Jay Boykin (51:57.881)
There's so many things that would be, it's amazing how much time it would take to be on all the things. And Nell, I wanna thank you so much for your time. And if you've got a couple more minutes, I promised you that I had a question from your book and this one could be a little bit deeper. And if we have to edit it out, we can think about that. But to my listeners again, thank you for being here.

we are talking to Nell, Derek, Deboevois, Dewey, aka Nell3D. And Nell, in your book, going first, early on, like we're not even into the first chapter where, you know, you've got in the very beginning why I think you're here. And at the tail end of that, you wrote, we're headed into a whole new reality.

in which humanity comes first. And I like to talk about the fact that with all of the things that can divide us in this world today, that if we focus on the fact that, you know, strip away the title, strip away all the labels, strip away all the things that we use to separate ourselves,

if we just focus on our shared humanity, that could change the world right then and there. But you opened your book. I mean, you're not even two pages into your book and you're talking about the fact that we're headed into a reality where humanity comes first. Sometimes it doesn't feel that way. Talk to me about your thoughts.

around that statement that you had in your book.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (53:58.137)
Thank you so much for zeroing in on that and calling me out on, I don't tend to like beat around the bush, you know? So yeah, we just get right to it. Stay tuned for similar in the next one. Look Jay, I don't know where this is all going. And a lot of indicators right now would suggest that it's going pretty badly, pretty quickly.

Full stop.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (54:30.51)
I don't see or feel any upside to leaning into that as the likely outcome.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (54:45.142)
And so I choose to tune into also very real and multi-source data that things can, and ultimately zooming out larger trends, going really well. And that we have all of this, technology and resources, but also human will to get the full benefit of this phenomenal age that we live in.

and to do my little tiny one eight billionth to nudge that way and to be as strategic of a pressure point in this system toward that paradigm shift toward humanity first, which is a systems thinking approach to the world.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (55:42.615)
But that's how I want to spend my days, not in the former. And if it all goes to shit, I don't think I'm going to regret this because I'm doing everything I can to push as hard as I know to in what I see as the right direction. So we actually had quite a deep conversation at my last, my poor niece's shower a few weeks ago, baby shower. what we got into was the fact that I hate.

Apocalypse movies, but one of my stepdaughters who's a young adult really loves them and so once in a blue moon I'll kind of find myself sucked into watching one. So we're talking about it and I was like look I don't want to be that last woman standing I have no interest in that like I don't want to be fighting the zombies off the last boat the last pier of New York I've no interest in that so I'm kind of tough like I don't want to be the first one to go when the zombies come out but I want to be somewhere like in like the

60 to 70 % disappearance maybe? Like, I don't need to see that last bit. So for now, I'm going to tune into the potential that this could get really beautiful and human and equitable and prosperous and fun and do what little I can, not head in the sand naive, but intelligently informed, strategically, collaboratively to edge us toward that.

And if it irreversibly is headed the other way, somewhere around 60 to 70 % of humanity being gone, I'll probably opt out somehow.

Jay Boykin (57:15.694)
Well, I'm gonna stay in the lane with you and focus on all the things that we can do to help change the world positively. And I do believe just from having the benefit of having some amazing conversations with amazing people like yourself on this forum and even in less formal atmospheres,

I am more hopeful than pessimistic. There's times that I get in that place where it's like, wow, this really sucks. But then I get to have a conversation with a great person like yourself, Nell, and it helps to lift me up. And so thank you so much. I mean, we're an hour into this and I feel like we scratched the surface and I could...

talk to you for at least another hour. But how about we just make this promise to my listeners, we'll bring you back and we'll talk about some other fun things at another time.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (58:27.406)
for it, up for it. Whenever you need your next season promo, I'll come in and do my just human thing. Let me know.

Jay Boykin (58:32.46)
See, that's what I'm talking about. I know that you got me there. Listeners, this has been Just Human, and we've been talking to Nell3D. We're gonna put all her links out there so that you can connect, and she's got great material that she puts out every single day. It is amazing. I definitely recommend her book going first.

I just want to say this again, thank you for spending an hour with us in this great conversation that we've had. And if you've got someone in your life that you think could really use this message and these powerful words from Nell, please share it with them. I'd like to ask a favor of you wherever you're listening, wherever you're watching, if you could give me a review, like it, subscribe.

share it with other people, that would be fantastic. That helps me to get better, that helps me to grow, and I definitely take the time to read all of those comments. So again, thank you for joining Just Human. Nell, thank you to you. And until our next episode, keep growing and keep being kind to yourself.

Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey (59:57.954)
Such a pleasure today. Thank you.