Episode 31 - The Leader Who Ended Up on the Office Floor (And What She Learned) with Rachael Edmondson-Clarke

 Ever notice how confidence can hold up right until the pressure stacks — and then the cracks show?

The defensiveness. The over-explaining. The silence.

In this episode, Jay sits down with Rachael Edmondson-Clarke — founder of Ellevar and a human performance partner for senior leaders — to unpack a different kind of confidence: the steady kind that can say "that was on me," hold a high standard without a power struggle, and lead calmly when the room is tense. Rachael blends the biology and psychology of leadership, and shares the moment she collapsed on her office floor from pushing through — and what she rebuilt on the other side.

You'll learn:
● Why confidence comes from competence and courage — and where ego actually sneaks in
● The difference between reframing stress and truly restoring (sleep, daylight, nature, movement, connection)
● The five social needs every team has — and how meeting them builds real psychological safety
● How to hold a high standard without breaking the relationship (the trust triangle)
● Why "capacity to lead" matters more than "capability" — and how to build it
● How to train the 10–15 second pause that turns a reaction into a response

Chapters / timestamps:
00:00 The Shift in Leadership Dynamics
02:36 Understanding High Performance and Personal Well-being
11:24 Toxic Leadership vs. Responsible Leadership
15:13 Confidence Without Ego
22:04 The Evolution of Executive Presence
30:31 Psychological Safety in Leadership
30:59 The Importance of Psychological Safety in the Workplace
34:45 Balancing Accountability and Relationships in Leadership
36:36 The Role of Emotional Intelligence in Leadership
40:17 Developing Leadership Skills Over Time
42:41 Recognizing Warning Signs of Burnout
45:31 Practices for Rest and Recreation
47:41 Micro Practices for Self-Awareness
55:40 The Power of Self-Talk and Language

Try this this week: When something feels off, ask one question before you react — "Where is this signal coming from?" Am I under-restored (sleep, food, movement, connection), or did something trigger me? Name it before you respond.

Connect with Rachael
● Website: https://www.ellevar.co.uk/
● LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rachaeledmondsonclarke/
● Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rachaeledmondsonclarke/
● Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/rachael.edmondson.clarke
● TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@rachael_edmondson_clarke?_r=1&_t=ZN-916I7oVes8U

Connect with Jay + subscribe
● Website: https://www.jayboykin.com
● YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@jayboykinofficial
● LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayboykin/
● Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jayboykinofficial/
● Podcast (Apple): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/just-human/id1773095157
● Podcast (Spotify): https://open.spotify.com/show/2zWqEiYcawOXnhC1tTtaW4
● Newsletter (Book of Jay): https://www.jayboykin.com/newsletters/just-human-book-of-jay
If this one hits home, subscribe and share it with a leader who needs it. Be kind to yourself. 

Transcript

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Jay Boykin (00:00:01)
Leadership today is taking a ⁓ major shift and today we're going to talk about confidence without ego and calm authority, clean ownership and standards that build trust. So I'm looking forward to this conversation. I hope you are as well hanging there with us.

Jay Boykin (00:00:41)
Well, welcome to Just Human. This is a space where we have honest conversations about what it takes to lead ⁓ and to build in today's world. We explore the intersection of business and leadership and personal growth. We talk about the practical stuff and the human stuff because success isn't just what you build. It's who you become while you are building it. I am Jay Boykin and I'm your host.

And thank you so much for listening. We are available everywhere that you can get great podcasts, also available on YouTube, Spotify, and Apple Music. We're gonna talk today about a leadership problem that ⁓ nobody really wants to admit out loud. You get a lot of confidence, and sometimes that confidence can be adrenaline dressed up like authority.

⁓ It works ⁓ until the pressure stacks up and then you start to see cracks ⁓ and defensiveness and over explaining or even silence. ⁓ But there's a different kind of confidence and the kind that feels steady even when the room is tense. The kind that can say, hey, that was on me. ⁓ The kind that can still hold the standard without it turning into a moment of power struggle.

And that is what we're going to unpack today. Today's guest is Rachel Edmondson-Clark, founder of Elivar and a human performance partner for senior leaders who are really operating under real pressure and constant change. And the amazing thing about Rachel's work is that she blends the biology and the psychology of leadership to help leaders really restore their energy.

sharpen their clarity and to lead with a steady presence. Rachel, how are you today?

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:02:42)
I'm doing fantastic, Jay. Thank you so much for having me on the show. I am excited to be here.

Jay Boykin (00:02:49)
Well, thank you so much for your time. ⁓ I would be remiss if we didn't hear a little bit about your background and how did you get to this place where you are focusing on ⁓ this area of leadership and human performance?

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:03:07)
I really learnt the hard way what high performance can cost. Very early on really in my career I was doing well on paper but behind the scenes I was exhausted, I was anxious. I really felt like I was carrying the weight of the entire organisation on my shoulders and I stopped respecting my body.

I neglected the most important relationship in my life and eventually I collapsed on my office floor. And the irony is that I'd always, even from a young age at school, been fascinated by what makes people tick. ⁓ And for all of my adult life, I'd loved exploring personal development and growth.

But I had become disconnected from my biology. And ⁓ in fact, I was doing something that I now see a lot of high performers doing. ⁓ I was reframing how I felt ⁓ and I was pushing through ⁓ over and over and over again. And that moment forced me to stop. Obviously, I was on the office floor. ⁓ Really to... ⁓

rethink and reset and ⁓ I at that stage started working with my system, not against it. And since then, ⁓ and for more than a decade now, that's been my work, helping leaders to perform at that high level sustainably where they don't lose that. And I know you talk a lot about this ⁓ in your just human philosophy, where they don't lose that connection to themselves in the process. ⁓

Jay Boykin (00:04:53)
that's ⁓ well, I'm glad that that you are okay and doing better now, but I want to ask you, you mentioned that you were reframing how you felt. Can you elaborate on that a little bit? Because I would imagine that we've got some listeners that are likely doing the exact same thing and I want to help them really to recognize what they might be doing.

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:05:18)
Yeah, of course. ⁓ So I had learned a lot about positive psychology as I'm sure you and many of our listeners will be very aware of. ⁓ And what I mean by that reframing was, you I was convinced that as I still am to a degree that I absolutely have control and can direct my emotions to an extent. But the piece that I had forgotten was that actually

long term, what I would call regulation, where, you know, things like sleep, daylight, ⁓ nature, movement, good nutrition, regular, regular food, spending time with people that you love and care about, ⁓ all of those things that really restore our energy, our mood and ⁓ our capacity to deal with stress. I've been neglecting all of those things ⁓ and constantly reframing the stress. ⁓

to say, okay, ⁓ I decide how I feel. I can do this. I can get through this day. ⁓ You know, I can decide what this situation means. I can choose where to put my focus. ⁓ And I just come disconnected from, you know, the what was going on inside of me ⁓ and ⁓ really disrespecting that over a prolonged period of time.

and ⁓ it just, ⁓ you know, ⁓ it caught up with me time out, body said. ⁓

Jay Boykin (00:06:47)
And said differently, I mean, I think that there is this belief, Rachel, that as leaders, we just have to suck it up. ⁓ And all of the things that we have to deal with, we just have ⁓ to push through it. So ⁓ I think that it's important for individuals in ⁓ leadership positions to recognize that they can't ignore these things, right?

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:07:13)
No, no, I was often the first one to switch the office lights on in the morning, the last one to switch them off at night. I would maybe, if I was lucky, be walking around the office shoveling some food in my mouth, usually around 2.30, something like that in the afternoon when I'd been there from eight o'clock or even 7.30 in the morning. And OK, that was...

you know, that might sound quite extreme, but ⁓ even so it's ⁓ very easy. ⁓ We all, ⁓ we all, think to some degree understand that those things that I just mentioned, things like sleep, good nutrition, daylight, nature, spending time with people who we love and care about. think we all understand on some level how important those things are.

But the reality is that we get into our jobs and our busy working lives and other things take over. And it's really easy to, although we know that, to neglect it, to stay sat at our desks and be sedatory for a long period of time during a day and not to be taking some of those regular breaks.

Jay Boykin (00:08:33)
You know, Rachel, we're already pivoting from some of the questions because you said something there that I find fascinating and ⁓ you mentioned, you know, things like sleep and making sure that we're eating properly, but also ⁓ being around other people. So there are many of us, myself included, who I work primarily from home ⁓ and ⁓ in the role that I have, I can go

hours ⁓ upon hours and maybe even days ⁓ without having to ⁓ leave my home just because of the technology and the ability to get so much work done ⁓ that way. Talk to me a little bit about the importance of interacting with other people and how that can help us because

I do find myself at times where it's ⁓ okay, I need to get out of this house and go and interact with ⁓ some different individuals.

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:09:43)
Sure. ⁓ And I ⁓ have no doubt you'd be able to share with us your experience of what that does ⁓ in terms of your mood and your energy and how you feel and then how you operate. ⁓ We all know, I think, that we have those relationships that fill us up, those people who we can spend time with, those people who ⁓ maybe we love and care about or people who we genuinely know.

that ⁓ we can trust and that have our backs. ⁓ And spending time with people like that is critically important. We are ⁓ social creatures, social beings, ⁓ and that support is ⁓ really, really ⁓ beneficial to us being able to show up and perform at our best. ⁓ And ⁓ one of the things I think we have to be really mindful of

particularly as busy leaders, is that when that pressure piles on, it can be ⁓ something to watch out for that we start to maybe disengage from some of those relationships. And we maybe start to pull back because we think either we've not got the time, ⁓ you know, or they're not something to prioritize.

So the same way as good sleep and nutrition and daylight and nature and movement and all of those things are important, so too are us keeping these good connections, particularly when times are tough and to watch that you're not starting to disengage from those.

Jay Boykin (00:11:24)
So true. So Rachel, ⁓ as you ⁓ read the news ⁓ and I see a lot of articles today that talk about toxic ⁓ leadership. ⁓ Help to frame ⁓ what that looks like and then how we compare it to ⁓ a more responsible leadership.

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:11:51)
Well, from my perspective and my experience, toxic leadership is not just about the style, I suppose it's really about the impact that it has. And when leadership is driven by ego and fear and short-term wins and

people or long-term outcomes become secondary. ⁓ I think that for me is where that type of leadership is not sustainable over the longer term and a more responsible leadership is more grounded ⁓ and ⁓ it's more aware of that ripple effect ⁓ and it's not just did we win ⁓ but actually how did we win ⁓ and ⁓ what did that cost ⁓ or

actually how, you know, how did that benefit because I think the way that you lead always leaves a trace.

Jay Boykin (00:12:58)
Yeah, I am reminded ⁓ of ⁓ some really some leaders that I've had the opportunity to work with in the past who were they were effective ⁓ at at what they did. ⁓ But thinking about what you just said, they were not necessarily thinking about how did we win ⁓ and and what was the cost. And so I think that that is ⁓

very important that those things matter, that ⁓ it can't be, you know, shareholder value ⁓ at any cost. can't be winning this big contract at any cost. ⁓ That there has to be a balance there, wouldn't you think?

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:13:47)
Absolutely, and I think it's Simon Sinek, you'll perhaps correct me, ⁓ that talks about ⁓ how do we, ⁓ the game here is ⁓ not how do we win at any cost, but how do we stay in the game? ⁓ And ⁓ I know that this ⁓ will ⁓ sit with you as well. For me, I think about, well, how do we all stay in the game?

⁓ When I say that, mean, from a human and planetary perspective, ⁓ how do we make sure that we can protect our futures ⁓ and ⁓ build families, communities, organizations, and a world where ⁓ that is, ⁓ we can stay in the game.

Jay Boykin (00:14:45)
Because people still matter. ⁓ The human side of things, that still matters. And I hope that ⁓ that never ⁓ goes away. And so Rachel, when we think about, ⁓ I mentioned something at the beginning that's talking about confidence ⁓ without ⁓ ego. ⁓ Explain your thoughts on ⁓ that expression, the confidence without ego.

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:15:13)
Well, it's really interesting, isn't it? Because ⁓ this often comes up for me with a lot of clients that I work with. know, they want greater confidence. ⁓ And, ⁓ you know, I often start by sort of, well, where do you think the confidence comes from? ⁓ And ⁓ what are the qualities that enable you to build that feeling of ⁓ confidence?

And often they will come from confidence, come from experience, from doing the thing. It's interesting, my youngest son, he's seven, and a friend of his came over at the weekend and he came with one of those hoverboards. I don't know if you've seen those. Oh, you may have done better than me. But I have to confess, Jay, that I was keen to have a go.

Jay Boykin (00:15:52)
Okay.

I've actually written one before. ⁓

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:16:05)
⁓ The kids did get some time with it, I promise, but I was keen to have a go. ⁓ And ⁓ the reality is, the first time I was going to have a go on this hoverboard, my confidence was going to be pretty low. ⁓ And I did need someone to stabilize me, hold on to me as I kind of got the hang of it and got going. ⁓ so where does that confidence come from? It comes from that competence. It comes from that experience. ⁓ It comes from trusting ourselves and

Jay Boykin (00:16:17)
Riot.

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:16:33)
Importantly, think it comes from having the courage to act without necessarily having that experience ⁓ or knowing it all or knowing all of the answers. ⁓ And I think the ego part that you were talking about, I think that shows up when we feel we really need to protect something, ⁓ whether that's our image, our status, our sense of control. ⁓ And I think where ⁓ sort of truly confident leaders ⁓

come into their own ⁓ is where they feel they don't need to protect, but actually they can stay curious and they can stay open.

Jay Boykin (00:17:15)
You know, Rachel, this reminds me ⁓ of ⁓ one of the greatest ⁓ leadership ⁓ failures that I had in my personal career, but it's something that I kept with me because I continue to allow that to keep me grounded. But my first ⁓ leadership position that ⁓ I was assigned when

I was early in my career. I was in my mid twenties ⁓ and I was given this managerial position and I was responsible for a team of 12 people and I thought that I knew everything. ⁓ And ⁓ I also thought that I had to have all the answers. ⁓ and I was, ⁓ I had the, I had the ego ⁓ and it turned out to be an epic failure early on.

in my career. But the thing that I learned is that ⁓ as leaders, no matter what level we're at in our careers, as leaders, ⁓ we can't ⁓ and shouldn't be expected to know everything. That we can ⁓ lean on the individuals who are actually closer to the ⁓ work.

and that it's not weakness if we don't have all the answers.

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:18:45)
⁓ I love that. ⁓ so a lot of ⁓ the CEOs and senior execs that I work with, ⁓ I will encourage, many of them do this naturally as well, but ⁓ from a point of view of they're the ones asking the questions coming from that space of curiosity ⁓ and asking others what they think and what they, and only really coming in with their point of view ⁓ once they've heard all of that

from the rest of the team or the organization. ⁓ I think ⁓ there is still a place ⁓ to, ⁓ there is absolutely a place to be able to say, ⁓ you know, I'm ⁓ not sure about this yet. ⁓ And that that level of openness and ⁓ vulnerability in some situations, in some cases, ⁓ is still absolutely fine.

Jay Boykin (00:19:44)
Absolutely. ⁓ And ⁓ I love what you mentioned there. I think that there are many leaders that I have seen that I've had the opportunity to work with who in that meeting, in that room, they might state their opinion first ⁓ and then wonder why... ⁓

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:20:04)
Yes.

Jay Boykin (00:20:09)
you know, there's ⁓ silence in the room because I think that there is that apprehension, a natural apprehension to ⁓ challenge that. ⁓ And what I learned is that some of the best leaders and some of the, this is something that I tried to do is to seek the input of others first before I ⁓ give my opinion. And I also found myself where my opinion would change as I'm hearing the

the thoughts and the opinions of others.

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:20:41)
Absolutely, absolutely. And it comes back, I think, to what we were saying before. this ⁓ ability to stay open and be curious ⁓ and, ⁓ yeah, to ⁓ not believe that you know it all, albeit you will no doubt, you will be in that position because of ⁓ immense ⁓ experience and success.

But ⁓ the world is changing so quickly at the moment. So I think, ⁓ and it's really challenging, I think ⁓ for leaders ⁓ because ⁓ the game is constantly changing and evolving very rapidly, whether it's geopolitical, whether it's technological changes, whether it's environmental stuff that's going, there's a lot of stuff that's before we even get into. ⁓

internal pressures and challenges within an organization. That's a lot. It's a lot for any of us to be dealing with and to think that we know it all or that we've got all of the answers. ⁓ I just do not think that is realistic. But can we show up and lead our people well? Absolutely, we can still do that.

Jay Boykin (00:22:04)
Yes, and leading from a place of curiosity. ⁓ I ⁓ love that you mentioned that. So, Rachel, I'm curious. ⁓ So often you will hear people talk about ⁓ executive presence or leadership presence. What does that look like today? I feel like that has ⁓ changed, or at least it should be. What does that

real presence look like in a leader.

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:22:37)
⁓ For me it's something that you can ⁓ feel straight away and it's about being and feeling seen and heard and understood ⁓ and ⁓ there's no rush, there's no performance, ⁓ it's just full attention, ⁓ me with you in this moment ⁓ and I think in what is now

very, it can be a very distracted world, that level of presence really, really stands out. I had a lovely situation a couple of weeks ago. I joined a colleague on a call over Zoom and she asked me, ⁓ you know, ⁓ how am I doing? And I was like, ⁓ do you know what? know what? ⁓ It's been a bit of a full on day. And ⁓ we were due to catch up. And she said to me, she said,

She said, look, would it help if we rescheduled? And I think she could see the utter relief, my shoulders drop. ⁓ And ⁓ there was a couple of things for me. She noticed me in that moment. And I think it's important to recognize that that was over a camera and not even in a room together, but she noticed me in that moment. And then she gifted me something that was really.

really exceptionally valuable to me at that point in time. We took five minutes, we rescheduled, and then I was able to show up in a way that meant I could be fully present with her again, but she was fully present with me. And I think there was a couple of things going on then. Not only was she able to gift me that, ⁓ it, you know, and it was only a second, but there was this split second where I was like, yes, receive this, Rachel, you know, and I think as leaders, sometimes we...

You you said it before, that we ⁓ believe that we have to have all of the answers and that we just have to take it all on. And actually it's OK to receive sometimes too. I know for some of us it doesn't come very often. ⁓ But being able to accept and being able to receive as well as give, I think it's important.

Jay Boykin (00:24:57)
That is an amazing story. And ⁓ I was having a conversation ⁓ with a group yesterday and talking about being fully present because ⁓ again, all of the, ⁓ there's a lot of data out there that talks about how disengaged workers ⁓ are ⁓ in many instances in the workplace, but just ⁓ the ⁓ power

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:24:57)
I

Jay Boykin (00:25:27)
of being fully present ⁓ and paying attention to ⁓ those type of things and recognizing much like that individual did for you that you were having ⁓ a challenging time that that can be a huge gift and a huge sign of a strong leader, don't you think?

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:25:51)
Yeah, hugely, hugely so. ⁓ And if I may, Jay, you said at the top of this ⁓ that ⁓ you feel like presence and what that is ⁓ has changed. So, ⁓ and should have changed. ⁓ So what's the shift that you see? I'd be interested to hear your perspective on that shift and the change. ⁓

Jay Boykin (00:26:17)
You know, that's a ⁓ thank you for that question. ⁓ The thing that I'm seeing is.

more of a focus ⁓ on the ⁓ how we do things, ⁓ the why ⁓ we are doing things. I believe that ⁓ the position, the leadership position of ⁓ here's what we need to go do, just go do it ⁓ is ⁓ changing. And ⁓ being in a space where ⁓ we can take in

the ideas and the perspectives and the experiences of ⁓ all of the people in the room, including the quiet person who's in the room, ⁓ as opposed to only hearing from the loudest person or the person with the most seniority. ⁓ I think that being able to ⁓ invite ⁓ everyone

who's at that table, everyone who is in that room to feel ⁓ the psychological safety to be able to speak up, to be able to say that ⁓ they disagree with ⁓ the groupthink that's going on, to say that they don't understand, ⁓ to say that they disagree without actually putting a target on their back. ⁓ That is the type ⁓ of

leadership where you get people to actually ⁓ lean in and buy in. ⁓ And I think that the strength that you get from a team like that ⁓ is ⁓ much more powerful than that, that top down, more dictatorial type leadership. That's, that's some of the shift that, that I'm seeing and more of ⁓ the direction that, that I'm seeing.

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:28:19)
Absolutely. And it's really interesting because so I've worked for several years now with a guy called Chris Beady. He's professor of evolutionary anthropology, cognition and neuroscience at Oxford and Kent universities here in the UK. ⁓ And ⁓ one of the things that ⁓ that he's been studying for 20 plus years now is this.

relationship between mood, emotion and sustainable high performance ⁓ and ⁓ one of the things that he talks about is ⁓ around ⁓ our emotional, he calls it our emotional ecosystems. you know if what we were talking about at the beginning of the show was you know sleep, nutrition, daylight, know kind of our own personal ecosystems

⁓ with the exception of the social piece that we were talking about, essentially the stuff that's going on inside of our skin. ⁓ But we don't operate in these vacuums where it's just us. We've got a whole external world of things and people that are out there. ⁓ And ⁓ he talks about five ⁓ social needs that we all have as human beings. And if any one or multiple of those needs are triggered at any point in time, we're going to feel

emotional dysregulation and what you were just saying then was about inviting everyone ⁓ and one of those fundamental social needs that we all have as human beings is to feel included ⁓ and so ⁓ where I'm sorry maybe slightly tight but where I'm tying this back into is you know if we can if as leaders we are meeting those fundamental social needs that we all have as human beings

including that need for inclusion, we're meeting those and we're not triggering those, then we're going to build cultures ⁓ and teams and performance ⁓ that is going to be sustainable and high trust and psychologically safe.

Jay Boykin (00:30:31)
That is ⁓ so good. And I'm going to get some information after ⁓ the show. ⁓ I want to read more about the work that he has been doing. Do you feel ⁓ psychological safety? Sometimes ⁓ you will hear that phrase and you will hear it ⁓ sometimes be attacked almost in the sense ⁓ of ⁓ coddling. How important

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:30:31)
you

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:30:59)
Mm-hmm.

Jay Boykin (00:31:01)
is ⁓ psychological safety ⁓ in the workplace especially.

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:31:11)
I feel that it's critical to high performance ⁓ because ⁓ without that safety, we want people to be creative, to bring their best ideas, ⁓ to ⁓ be willing to challenge, to potentially fail as well. ⁓ And if they don't feel ⁓ safe to do that ⁓ or to have those candid conversations with one another.

then ⁓ that's not a situation where people are able to perform at their best. I do accept that there are certain situations ⁓ where by different styles and types of leadership where there may be less ⁓ psychological safety are appropriate, but I think generally in the business workplace, they are, you know, few and far between.

Jay Boykin (00:32:11)
Absolutely. And I think that if we're in a situation where ⁓ there's a safety issue, where lives may be ⁓ at stake, ⁓ you probably have less time to ⁓ really take in the entire room. ⁓ And you may not have the opportunity to create in that moment

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:32:27)
Yes.

Jay Boykin (00:32:37)
all of the psychological safety that you can in ⁓ your average business boardroom. But in most instances, as you alluded to, think that having that space, creating that space where individuals feel like they can ⁓ show up, it's not just okay for someone to have a great idea.

If they don't feel like they can express that idea, then that idea is likely ⁓ not going to go anywhere.

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:33:14)
Absolutely, absolutely. You again, it comes back to if you don't feel safe, then you're potentially in protection mode again. And ⁓ if you're in protection mode, your energy is not going to be out here. It's going to be you're going to you know, you're going to be tightening, you're going to be holding on. And ⁓ actually, we want people to be putting themselves and their best foot and their best creativity and ideas forward. ⁓ So

being ⁓ able to create environments ⁓ where ⁓ people do feel those things. ⁓ And I come back to these fundamental social needs that we have as human beings. What can we do as leaders to make sure that people feel included, that they feel as though they are valued and that they belong, that they have?

certainty ⁓ and clarity around what they're doing that ⁓ you know they ⁓ they feel like they're they're equally and fairly treated. These are all really important fundamental human needs and when we when we when we meet those ⁓ we ⁓ naturally and natural byproduct of us meeting those is that we will have

that feel psychologically safe and help people to perform at their best.

Jay Boykin (00:34:45)
Rachel, when we have a team that is performing at their best, ⁓ when you've got high performers, when you've got ⁓ a ⁓ high ⁓ standard, how do you ⁓ hold a level of accountability? How do you ⁓ maintain that ⁓ high standard ⁓ and try to maintain the relationship?

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:35:14)
Hmm, this is such a good question. Do you know, I see so many leaders get caught in this, either they lower the standard to protect the relationship or they push the standard and end up damaging it. And I think the balance sits in the trust and the trust tends to rest on three things. And I come back to the trust triangle here.

Francis Frey, think if I'm recalling this correctly, ⁓ you know, that's about authenticity, it's about logic, and it's also about being able to have empathy. ⁓ And, ⁓ you know, so ⁓ I guess when I'm ⁓ holding a high standard, I want people to feel that I'm being real, and what I'm saying makes sense, ⁓ and that I genuinely care about them. ⁓ And, ⁓ you know, if you ⁓ are

doing that in such a way that ⁓ meets those social needs that we've been talking about as well. When that's consistently met, ⁓ that trust builds and then I think you can challenge directly without breaking the relationship. But it's also of course about having good rapport as well with people when you're doing those things as well.

Jay Boykin (00:36:36)
Rachel, ⁓ what's your opinion on ⁓ emotional intelligence and where do you feel that comes into play ⁓ in leadership?

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:36:48)
I think it's huge ⁓ and ⁓ I think it starts with us being ⁓ more emotionally aware of our own feelings and emotions. And one of the things that ⁓ I have really, ⁓ really thoroughly enjoyed in my own journey and what I work enormously with now with my clients ⁓ is them having a better understanding.

that our feelings are really useful signals, far from being something that needs to be suppressed or squashed or ignored. ⁓ know, ⁓ feelings are like a cloud dashboard. They're signals letting us know that ⁓ something needs attention. ⁓ And for me, one of the greatest questions that we can ask ourselves as leaders is,

when we recognise something feels off, maybe we're slightly frustrated or stressed or, you know, feeling deflated or whatever it is, we recognise something doesn't feel good. Where is that signal coming from? And how much of that signal is down to the things that we were talking about at the beginning of the show? ⁓ You know, the stuff your grandma would tell you.

Have you eaten? Have you slept well? you had movement, daylight, nature? You know, all of that's a good social connection. ⁓ How much of it is because you are just under restored in that area? And how much of it ⁓ is because something or someone has triggered you? ⁓ And ⁓ you know, that's, you know, it's triggered, it will have triggered one of your five social ⁓ needs that we've been talking about. So.

you know, how much of how you are feeling is, and of course those two things, ⁓ they interrelate and one has an impact on the other, absolutely. ⁓ But when you can ask yourself, like, what is this signal? ⁓ you know, can, so then the next intuitive question is, what do I do about it? ⁓ And we want to try to restore ⁓ our, you know, our mood, all that stuff that's inside of our skin.

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:39:05)
How are we integrating that into our leadership practices? And how do we resolve that issue, that thing, or ⁓ have a conversation if it's someone that's triggered us? How do we try to resolve that? ⁓ And ⁓ that really brings us back to that equilibrium within our bodies where we're able to ⁓ respond and perform at our best.

I think so often with leaders and particularly in leadership, we can talk a lot about leadership capability and it's ⁓ really important, absolutely. But what I think is missing so often is we don't talk about capacity to lead well. And what I'm talking about here is leaders becoming better aware of their own capacity and how they are making sure

that they are regularly restoring and recognising how they are feeling so that they have the capacity to meet the demands because there are a lot of demands on leaders today.

Jay Boykin (00:40:17)
Absolutely. I'm going to ask you what I think is going to be a very rhetorical question. ⁓ We've heard the expression ⁓ many times that certain individuals are just ⁓ born leaders. Do you feel that the capacity ⁓ to lead, the ability to lead is something that you just have or something that you can truly develop over time?

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:40:45)
This is a great question. I think that there are people that do naturally, it comes to them easier than others, but there's so much skill involved in leadership. And you talk about this, that connection that you have with yourself, is an...

ever ongoing journey ⁓ and then how we learn to better connect with others I think is an ongoing journey ⁓ and ⁓ so ⁓ yeah will anyone or any one of us ⁓ ever know it all? No we won't and there will always be skills to learn but do some people seem to be perhaps a little bit more naturally disposed to it? Perhaps.

Jay Boykin (00:41:42)
Thank you for that. We are talking to Rachel Edmondson-Clark and we're talking about leadership, a very powerful conversation around leadership. Rachel, you mentioned ⁓ when you were giving us your background and your story that ⁓ you literally ended up on the floor, that you were neglecting ⁓ your internal dashboard.

And probably there were many warning signs that you were ignoring until you literally ended up on the floor. ⁓ As you're working with the leaders that you're working with today, what are some of ⁓ the ⁓ warning signs that could be on their dashboard that ⁓ they need to not ignore so as not to end up on the floor the way that you did?

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:42:41)
Well, there's a number of things. So if you find yourself ⁓ regulating ⁓ and reframing ⁓ as I was over a long period, we know now that it's clinically predictive of certain risks and outcomes. ⁓ And some of those risks are ⁓ a decrease in cognitive performance. So you might find yourself more easily confused.

⁓ not being able to make sense of things. We find that ⁓ we find leaders who will have an increase in negative bias, so they might feel more threatened. So if you're feeling that way, that could also be another ⁓ sign and another signal. We talked before about disengagement, when we talked about disengaging from ⁓ other people or things that we know that...

that people that we love and care about. So that's also true in a work sense as well. So you might find yourself starting so quietly disengaging from things. That's another signal. ⁓ Just your work performance not being exactly ⁓ as good as you know, maybe that it could be. ⁓ And the other thing that regularly comes up as well is you start to, you may start to notice whether you're aware of it or not.

but just being less empathetic to others as well. So ⁓ along with ⁓ all of the things that we've spoken about before, ⁓ you may find yourself not eating well or regularly. ⁓ You may find yourself in cycles like needing a wine or a beer to chill out at the end of the day and coffees to get you going. ⁓

I mean, that may seem ⁓ relatively mild, but we do then get outcomes like poor physical and mental health and substance abuse. It might sound quite a strong word, you know, but people are relying on other things to be able to function and perform. ⁓ And ultimately that can lead to burnout, as it did in my case, ⁓ and ⁓ people leaving, departing.

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:45:01)
from organisations. and those are things that are clinically predictive. If you are for any prolonged period of time not restoring yourself or you're not resolving some of the emotional conflicts that are there, you stay in that environment for a prolonged period of time, it is gonna have those outcomes and those risks attached to it.

Jay Boykin (00:45:31)
Rachel, ⁓ I'm going off script a little bit. What does ⁓ rest, what does recreation look like ⁓ for you today?

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:45:31)
Thank ⁓

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:45:40)
Mm, I love that. So ⁓ rest and recreate. So ⁓ this morning I went to my children's music recital, ⁓ which was just absolutely gorgeous. ⁓ I'm very lucky that I get to have the flexibility in my work that allows me to ⁓ integrate ⁓ just as I would like it.

So I have a PT session three times a week. That ⁓ time is fiercely protected. ⁓ I am on a quarterly basis. I go and I see a lady and I have a facial Reiki massage and I just, and that's like a ⁓ ritual that I have every ⁓ change of the season, which I always look forward to.

And of course I do things annually. I think, you know, I suppose the nice thing here ⁓ and that might prompt listeners is to think about what are the habits, the routines, the rituals that you have for rest and restoration on a daily basis, a weekly basis, you know, a monthly seasonal basis, and also what are those kind of adventure things that you want to plan in and ⁓ be doing once a year. So this whole idea that we can.

actually, you know, kind of take that step back, think about, I book these things, ⁓ this is how I operate and I know we're not all the same, but I book those things in, I have them scheduled and then I fiercely protect them, fiercely protect them.

Jay Boykin (00:47:11)
That's ⁓ so good. And you talk about ⁓ fiercely protecting these things. These are ⁓ boundaries. These are part of your boundaries that you have established. As you're working with ⁓ the leaders that ⁓ you work with, are there some particular practices that ⁓ you ⁓ might encourage them so that they can become more in tune to themselves, whether it is

know, journaling, meditation, ⁓ are there some micro practices that you recommend to help leaders to really get in tune with themselves?

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:47:52)
⁓ I'm going to come back to that question that I said before ⁓ because ⁓ I think ⁓ that being tuned into and being able to recognise ⁓ something feels a bit off here. ⁓ I'm noticing that ⁓ I've got, ⁓ you know, I'm, because the crazy thing is, is that sometimes we are the last

people to realise that we're in a mood. ⁓ So perfect example, I said I've got one quiz and ⁓ it has been the case before where I've woken up in the morning and the first time I realised that I've got an under restored mood is when I snapped at them for something that the morning before I would have laughed at them.

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:48:40)
you know, and it's because I've had maybe a lack of sleep that night or whatever. So, you know, I think ⁓ really being able to, being able to build this awareness ⁓ and being able to put some space between the things that, you know, the stimulus and our response ⁓ and ⁓ recognizing then that in that space between anything that's

triggered us or you know that's you know something that's happened that in that space we have we have the freedom to choose ⁓ who we want to show up and be and that freedom to choose happens moment to moment to moment ⁓ every single day ⁓ we get that opportunity to choose

how we want to show up and the leaders that we want to be of ourselves and of others. ⁓ So build that, build that ⁓ awareness and that recognition of your ability to tune in and to choose.

Jay Boykin (00:49:51)
You know, Rachel, you said something that was ⁓ so insightful and it made me think of, ⁓ you know, as human beings, ⁓ it's hardwired into us to ⁓ have these moments ⁓ of amygdala hijack where we go into that fight, ⁓ freeze or flee type of a mentality.

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:50:16)
Yeah. ⁓

Jay Boykin (00:50:21)
You know, ⁓ it kept our ancestors alive ⁓ out in the wild, but it's still part of our brains. It's part of who we are as human beings. ⁓ And ⁓ so often you will see situations where ⁓ an individual is triggered, some feeling ⁓ emotion ⁓ is ⁓ triggered. And we have that ⁓ brief moment of

amygdala hijack and ⁓ we will ⁓ react as opposed to taking a moment to ⁓ really check in with ourselves, understand that yes, I'm feeling this way. Why am I feeling this way? You know, this person ⁓ isn't really, you know, they may have been ⁓ the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak, but that

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:51:02)
Mm-hmm.

Jay Boykin (00:51:19)
10 to 15 seconds of pause can be a huge difference between a horrible ⁓ reaction and a mature response, right?

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:51:31)
Yeah, yeah. And it's not easy. ⁓ if you are under restore this, I'm coming back. I keep coming back. It's not intentional. I promise. But like, you know, if you are under restored in those things that we talked about at the beginning, ⁓ it takes a lot ⁓ of energy ⁓ to be able to be to override the lizard brain with the executive brain at the front here, very simply talking about things.

That takes a lot of energy and a lot of effort. And so if you are under restored in sleep, movement, know, good nutrition, all of those things that we've been talking about is going to be so much harder for you to be able to respond in that mature way. will take so much more energy, ⁓ which is why, and I come back to, my story and me being on the floor, it's why not ignoring the biology.

and integrating restoration practices into our daily, weekly, monthly, annually cycles is so important, so important. You can do it and it's like a muscle, you can train it. So, just like going to the gym and lifting those weights, you can practice and I would encourage leaders to practice on the really small things.

silly example, really silly example. I noticed myself getting agitated and annoyed brushing my teeth the other morning when my electric toothbrush ran out of battery. Body went all tense, it got really kind of cross and then I realised what I was doing. I let go of all of that tension and I just went hang on a minute this is silly.

I pulled the toothbrush out with the head still in my mouth ⁓ and I realized that my husband also has one. He's a bit more organized than me, so his was charged up and I swapped it. ⁓ Silly, silly little example, but those kind of examples are available to all of us all the time and we can train ourselves with these like what seemingly, you know, silly or insignificant things. And then when we need to do the serious bench press,

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:53:45)
know, when we're in that meeting and somebody says something, you know, we've trained ourselves to be much better and quicker at being able to spot what, you know, what could be an immediate reaction and put some space between that. And it doesn't even have to be a lot, you know, like you can train yourself to do like it's, it can be in a breath and everything can change.

but it's...

Jay Boykin (00:54:12)
I, ⁓ sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. I love the example of the toothbrush. ⁓ I ⁓ love that example. You made me think of another ⁓ question and one of the things that ⁓ I tend to close out each episode with ⁓ is making the comment to my listeners to be kind to yourself ⁓ and... ⁓

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:54:16)
No, no, no, I can't do that.

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:54:21)
you

Jay Boykin (00:54:41)
It's so funny because ⁓ there are times that I can be the worst ⁓ to myself. ⁓ I will give others way more grace than I give myself. As you work with leaders, ⁓ Rachel, I know that they are under ⁓ enormous pressures, whether they are running large corporations, ⁓

smaller businesses, ⁓ non-profit organizations, research teams, whatever the case may be, ⁓ leaders are ⁓ so often under a lot of pressure. As part of the self-care that we need to think about is the storylines that are playing in our own heads that we need to really...

give ourselves the same type of grace that we would show to another human being.

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:55:40)
Absolutely. I often talk about, you know, the work that I do in, you know, there's the state, the emotional state. We've been talking lots about that. The story, what are the stories? What are the beliefs? What are the things that we are telling ourselves and, you know, and sharing with others? And the strategies, what are the strategies then that can help? So yes is the answer.

And what do we usefully do about that? I this conversation with a client this morning ⁓ and ⁓ we were wrapping things up, having worked together for six months ⁓ and he'd asked, you know, to kind of recap on some of the principles. And one of those principles was just be your language is so powerful ⁓ and ⁓ what you say to yourself and to other people impacts how you feel.

And ⁓ it ⁓ it's your way of interpreting your life and your life experiences. So if you say, ⁓ my kids are a nightmare, they're going to feel like they're a nightmare versus, ⁓ my kids are acting age appropriately. ⁓ So choosing your words, especially the words that we use with ourselves, ⁓ is so important. But the other thing I said to him this morning was it's not just.

the words that we use. It's ⁓ how we speak to ourselves, which really ⁓ you may have shared this with your listeners before, ⁓ but just that whole remembering that it's not just what you say, it's how you say it. And that even the voice inside of our head, and we all have them, that you have the DJ decks. ⁓ Like imagine you've got the DJ decks with all of them and you can change those voices.

because sometimes that voice is so harsh and it's so damning. Well, what actually if that was a really beautiful, soft, I don't know, fairy godmother voice or the volume was turned right down or it was just like a whisper ⁓ or it was just speaking to you in the kindest possible way. So remembering it's yes, the language is so important, but also how you speak to yourself.

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:58:08)
and that you do have control, you do have the DJ decks to be able to play around ⁓ with that. Make it a funny voice, ⁓ make it a sexy voice. Like actually you can control that too.

Jay Boykin (00:58:22)
That is ⁓ so good. Rachel, this has been an amazing conversation. If my listeners wanted to reach out and connect with you, ⁓ what platforms are you on? What's the best way for them to connect?

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:58:37)
Well, thank you for asking. ⁓ can get in touch with me on LinkedIn is the best platform, but I am also on Instagram ⁓ and Facebook as well. But the best place would be through my website, is ⁓ elevar.co.uk. ⁓

Jay Boykin (00:58:57)
Beautiful. Thank you so much for that. Rachel, this has been a great conversation. Thank you so much for your time. And I feel like we could have ⁓ continued to have this conversation. And I feel like this isn't going to be the last time that we're going to have you here on the show.

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke (00:59:16)
Thank you so much. I have loved it, Jay. Thank you for having me on.

Jay Boykin (00:59:21)
absolutely. And to my listeners, thank you so much for being here. I know that with ⁓ so many demands on your time, ⁓ the fact that you chose to take time out of your day and listen means a lot to me. And I would ask this of you, ⁓ no matter where you are listening to Just Human, I would love it if you would subscribe, ⁓ leave me some comments ⁓ so that we can get better.

And if there is someone out there that you think can really ⁓ use ⁓ this message, definitely share it with them. ⁓ And so again, thank you for joining us on Just Human. Until next time, I want you to remember, be kind to yourself.